Black Leadership in Los Angeles: Celes King IIIInterviewd by Bruce M. Tyler and Robin D. G. KelleyDepartment of Special Collections
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Restrictions on this Interview
None.
Literary Rights and Quotation
This manuscript is hereby made available for research purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publication, are reserved to the University Library of the University of California, Los Angeles. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the University Librarian of the University of California, Los Angeles.
This interview was supported in part by a grant from the UCLA Institute of American Cultures in conjunction with the UCLA Center for Afro-American Studies.
Photograph courtesy of Celes King III. Photographer: Eric Meyer.
Biographical Summary
Personal History:
Born: September 18, 1923, in Chicago.
Education: public schools in Chicago; Manual Arts High School, Los Angeles; LL.B, Pacific Coast University; M.B.A., Pepperdine University; Master's in Urban and Community Planning, Pepperdine University; doctoral candidate, Laurence University.
Spouse: Anita Givens, four children.
Career History:
Owner-administrator, King Bail Bond Agency, 1951-present.
Administrator, School of Business and Management, Pepperdine University, 1973-77.
Assistant professor, Department of Pan-African Studies, California State University, Los Angeles, 1978-79.
Public Service:
Bail Reform Evaluation Committee, Office of Criminal Justice Planning, 1980-84.
Black Agenda, Inc., board of directors, 1981-present.
Black Education Commission, founding board of directors, 1967.
Brotherhood Crusade, cofounder, 1968.
California Black Republican Council, 1975-83; public affairs director 1983-present.
California Republican Party, state central committee, 1972-present.
California State Senate Advisory Commission on Bond and Surety Matters, commissioner, 1983-present.
Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), California state chair, 1978-present.
Kedren Community Health Center, Los Angeles, board of directors, 1975-85.
Laurence University (now University of Santa Barbara), chairman, board of trustees, 1976-88.
Los Angeles City Human Relations Commission, president, 1968-73.
Los Angeles Rumor Control and Information, cofounder, 1968-73.
Los Angeles Urban League, 1951-present.
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), 1951-present; vice president, 1964-66; president, 1966-69.
National Business League, 1985-present.
Professional Organizations:
Independent Bail Agents Association of California, president, 1979-85.
Independent Insurance Agent and Brokers Association of Los Angeles, 1978-present.
Los Angeles County Bail Agency Association, chair, 1978.
Professional Bondsmen of the United States, West Coast president, 1983-84; executive vice president, 1984-85; national president, 1985-88.
Military Service:
Second lieutenant, United States Air Force, 1943-44.
Brigadier general, California Military Reserve, 1982-present.
Interview History
Interviewers:
Bruce M. Tyler, Interviewer, UCLA Oral History Program. B.A., History, M.A., History, California State University, Long Beach; Ph.D., History, UCLA. Visiting Lecturer, California State University, Northridge.
Robin D.G. Kelley, Interviewer, UCLA Oral History Program. B.A., History, California State University, Long Beach; M.A., History of Africa, UCLA. Member of the editorial board of Ufahamu.
Time and Setting of Interview:
Place: King's office in Los Angeles, California.
Dates: January 9, February 27, March 5, April 13, 27, May 25, June 1, 27, July 6, 14, 23, August 7, 11, 1985; March 27, April 3, 1987.
Time of day, length of sessions, and total number of hours recorded: King's schedule did not allow interviews to be set at a standard hour; sessions were held at various times throughout the day. Most sessions lasted about an hour and a half, but a few were only forty-five minutes long. A total of twenty hours of conversation was recorded.
Persons present during interview: Tapes I-XIV, King and Tyler. On Tape VII, King's friend C. A. "Bob" Barber sat in. Tapes XV-XVII, King and Kelley.
Conduct of Interview:
Tyler, after completing interview sessions in August, 1985, left Los Angeles to assume a position as assistant professor of history at the University of Louisville. Kelley, following Tyler's topic outline, completed the interview in 1987.
The interview proceeds chronologically, starting with King's family background and childhood experiences and moving on through his military service and his involvement in politics, business, and the Los Angeles black community. Frequently, however, the chronology is interrupted by sustained discussion of a given topic. Among the major topics discussed are the Dunbar Hotel,
This interview is one of a series undertaken since 1983 with selected Los Angeles black leaders.
Editing:
David P. Gist, assistant editor, edited the interview. He checked the verbatim transcript of the interview against the original tape recordings, edited for punctuation, paragraphing, and spelling, and verified proper names. Words and phrases inserted by the editor have been bracketed.
In June 1986, the edited transcript was sent to King for review. He verified proper names but made no changes in the text and returned the manuscript in February 1987. King's wife, Anita Givens King, and Attorney Irving Andrews both assisted in the verification of unanswered queries.
Teresa Barnett, editor, and Richard Martinez, editorial assistant, prepared the table of contents and biographical summary. Teresa Barnett, editor, prepared the index.
Supporting Documents:
The original tape recordings of the interview are in the university archives and are available under the regulations governing the use of permanent noncurrent records of the university. Records relating to the interview are located in the office of the UCLA Oral History Program.
Table of Contents
- TAPE NUMBER: I, Side One (January 9, 1985)
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Family background of King's father, Celestus A. King, Jr.--Family background of King's mother, Leontyne Butler King--Leon E. Brown, mother's stepfather.
- TAPE NUMBER: II, Side One (February 27, 1985)
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King's great-grandfather, George Nelson--Nelson's family leaves Brenham, Texas, after a lynching--King is born in Chicago--Incident in which he swam into whites-only bathing zone--Elementary school education--Interest in flying.
- TAPE NUMBER: II, Side Two (March 5, 1985)
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King's early church involvement--Family's economic situation and father's refusal to accept relief--Father's various jobs--King's admiration for his older friend, Junior Murray--Black neighborhoods in Chicago--More on family's economic situation and father's employment--Uncle James Nelson buys the Dunbar Hotel in Los Angeles.
- TAPE NUMBER: III, Side One (April 13, 1985)
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King's association with his cousin Jackie Davis--Attends Tilden Technical High School--Parents' emphasis on getting an education--Elections in Chicago--Parents' political beliefs and their ethic of self-reliance--Mother's work at Jacob's Dress Shop--Effects of the Depression in Chicago--Family moves to Los Angeles and buys an apartment house--King attends Manual Arts High School--Reasons for moving to Los Angeles--Story of how King's uncle bought the Dunbar Hotel.
- TAPE NUMBER: III, Side Two (April 13, 1985)
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Centrality of the Dunbar Hotel--The Houstons and the Nickersons--Entertainers who stayed at the Dunbar--King meets important people at the Dunbar--Lena Horne demands to see him when she comes to Tuskegee Institute--Learns to fly from Jimmie Lunceford--Becomes a pilot in the air force by not revealing his previous flying experience--Knows people all over the country--Scarcity of black pilots--Unemployment during the Depression--Move to Los Angeles advances the King family's social status.
- TAPE NUMBER: IV, Side One (April 27, 1985)
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King's first impressions of Los Angeles--Involvement with the Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) in Chicago and Los Angeles--Building model airplanes--Learns about business through his family's example--Attendance at Manual Arts High School.
- TAPE NUMBER: IV, Side Two (April 27, 1985)
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Manual Arts High School continued.
- TAPE NUMBER: V, Side One (May 25, 1985)
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King finds Los Angeles a pleasant place to live--Activities at the YMCA--Prominent blacks who grew up in Los Angeles--King's high school activities--First car brings mobility--Early trips to Val Verde--Buys a home in Val Verde--Val Verde as a black vacation community--King aspires to a balanced, well-rounded life--Travels to see sports events.
- TAPE NUMBER: V, Side Two (May 25, 1985)
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King travels around the country--Publicizes his business by sending press releases to newspapers nationwide--Posts bonds for civil rights activists.
- TAPE NUMBER: VI, Side One (June 1, 1985)
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Lessons King learned at Johnson's Pool Hall--Guests his own age he met at the Dunbar Hotel--His practical approach to education--Feeling that it's possible to be an officer and not lose contact with enlisted men--Hazing--Why King enlisted--Tuskegee Institute program weeds out 50 percent of entering pilots--King elected adjutant of class--Demoted for being in town on a nonblack day but works his way up again--Black response to segregation in the military.
- TAPE NUMBER: VI, Side Two (June 1, 1985)
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Judge William Hastie fights for end to segregation--Is replaced by Truman Gibson--Small proportion of black pilots in the military and in commercial flying--Only the best pilots make it through Tuskegee's program--King becomes a bomber pilot--Becomes an especially good pilot through hard work--Ruling barring black officers from officers' mess forces King to realize the need for change--Military refuses to allow black pilots overseas--King gets commercial pilot's license--Pilots return to civilian life--Colorado Anti-Discrimination Commission v. Continental Air Lines forces airlines to hire black pilots--King becomes a member of California State Military Reserve--Returns to Los Angeles and takes over his mother's jukebox business.
- TAPE NUMBER: VII, Side One (June 27, 1985)
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King goes into the jukebox business--Attends night school--Early black bail agents in Los Angeles--Works part-time for bail agent Dave Finley--Graduates with an LL.B. from Pacific Coast University--Various law degrees available--Why unaccredited law schools are not necessarily inferior schools--King decides to go into the bail bond business--Policy of maintaining clients' confidentiality--Remodels one of his father's buildings for his first office--Business in the Dunbar Hotel.
- TAPE NUMBER: VII, Side Two (June 27, 1985)
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Black celebrities at the Dunba'r Hotel--The Dunbar as a focal point for the black community--White clientele in the Dunbar area--Impact of integration on the Dunbar--Price of accommodations--Black baseball players.
- TAPE NUMBER: VIII, Side One (July 6, 1985)
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Decline of the Dunbar Hotel--General decline of businesses in the Central Avenue district--King's family takes over management of the hotel after Uncle Jimmy Nelson's death--Dunbar loses business as number of railroad passengers declines--White employers in the black community--Police Chief William H. Parker and the black community--Heavy ticketing in the Central Avenue area.
VOLUME II
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VOLUME II
- TAPE NUMBER: IX, Side One (July 14, 1985)
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Harry S. Truman's support of blacks in the armed forces--King's youthful expectation that integration would be easy--His earliest political activity--Becomes a Republican--Distrust of the Democratic party and their union activities in his mother's dress shop--Wages at the Dunbar Hotel--General Dwight D. Eisenhower's attitude toward blacks contrasted to attitudes of other generals--Eisenhower and the sending of troops to Little Rock--Dixiecrats versus liberal Democrats-King's reasons for voting for Eisenhower over Adlai E. Stevenson--King supports Democrats even though he is a Republican.
- TAPE NUMBER: IX, Side Two (July 14, 1985)
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Civil rights and the political parties--Beginnings of integration in Las Vegas--Picketing Las Vegas hotels--Buck West--Recent decline of number of blacks working in Las Vegas casinos--Black support of Norris Poulson.
- TAPE NUMBER: X, Side One (July 14, 1985)
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King transfers his support from Poulson to Samuel W. Yorty--Demands for integration of Los Angeles fire department--Police Chief William H. Parker's opposition to integration of police department--Campaigning for Sam Yorty--Trash disposal becomes an issue in Yorty's campaign--Yorty's conflict with the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD)--Black opposition to Yorty.
- TAPE NUMBER: X, Side Two (July 14, 1985)
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Yorty appoints blacks to office--King's mother, Leontyne Butler King, is appointed to Los Angeles City Board of Library Commissioners and promotes books by and about blacks in the libraries--King resigns from the Los Angeles City Human Relations Commission when Mayor Thomas Bradley is elected--Yorty's administration makes concessions to Augustus F. Hawkins and H. Claude Hudson--Key blacks in Yorty's 1961 campaign--Yorty's relationship to the Democratic party establishment--King and others persuade Yorty to run for mayor in 1961--Blacks Yorty appointed to offices--LAPD raid on Muslim mosque in 1962--Increasing black equality during Yorty's administration.
- TAPE NUMBER: XI, Side One (July 23, 1985)
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Decision to support Yorty in order to get blacks into office--Political versus economic change--Careers which Yorty helped advance--Councilman Joe E. Hollingsworth's lack of responsiveness to the black community--Blacks become involved in both political parties--Appointment of nine black commissioners--Commissioners' declining status.
- TAPE NUMBER: XI, Side Two (July 23, 1985)
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Yorty's integrity and absence leanings--The Communist Party in the black community--Yorty of communist s lack of influence and Parker.
- TAPE NUMBER: XII, Side One (August 7, 1985)
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Unfulfilled expectations lead to the Watts riots--Parker's attitude toward the black community--Other factors which may have contributed to the riots--King's personal reaction to the riots--Meetings held to deal with the riots--Trying to get people off the streets at the arrival of the National Guard--The Temporary Alliance of Local Organizations (TALO) and the Black Congress--Preparing to post bonds for the rioters.
- TAPE NUMBER: XII, Side Two (August 7, 1985)
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King posts the bonds--Posting bonds for other civil rights cases--The government keeps many of the rioters off the street by charging them with felonies instead of misdemeanors--White merchants leave Watts--War on Poverty programs designed to fail--Black flight.
- TAPE NUMBER: XIII, Side One (August 11, 1985)
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More on the black flight phenomenon--Blacks' desire to escape the service industries reduces their economic power--Education a necessary step in obtaining better employment--White media's lack of credibility in the black community-Founding and funding Los Angeles Rumor Control and Information--Rumors that police killed a girl at George Washington Carver Junior High School.
- TAPE NUMBER: XIII, Side Two (August 11, 1985)
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Rumor Control relations with LAPD--Rumor Control mediates between various groups in the black community--Its use of the media--King serves as adviser to Olympic Rumor Control--His campaigns for political office--Pan-African studies faculty at California State University, Los Angeles.
- TAPE NUMBER: XIV, Side One (August 11, 1985)
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Credentials of Pan-African studies people at Cal State L.A.--Maulana Ron Karenga--Finance, faculty, and accreditation at Laurence University--King's membership in the California State Military Reserve and his work with the National Guard.
- TAPE NUMBER: XV, Side One (March 27, 1987)
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Streets in Los Angeles named after blacks--King's campaign to change Santa Barbara Avenue to Martin Luther King, Jr., Boulevard--The ordinance changing the street name is finally signed.
- TAPE NUMBER: XV, Side Two (March 27, 1987)
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Name change appealed to the California Supreme Court--March and rally in support of the name change--Black support for a city commission on human relations--Sam Yorty's campaign for mayor--Yorty appoints blacks to city positions--King is appointed to the Los Angeles City Human Relations Commission.
- TAPE NUMBER: XVI, Side One (March 27, 1987)
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Difficulties the human relations commission faced--Issues it dealt with during King's tenure-Members of the commission--The commission has the fire department's height requirements changed.
- TAPE NUMBER: XVII, Side One (April 3, 1987)
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King's involvement with the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE)--James Farmer, founder of COREIntegration of Torrance, California, housing project--King posts bonds for CORE activists-Demonstrations at a meeting of the Realtors--King receives award from CORE--Factions within CORE-Local and national leaders of CORE--The organization's internal problems--Its influence on the black student community.
- TAPE NUMBER: XVII, Side Two (April 3, 1987)
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King's involvement with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC)--Appointment to the Black Education Commission--California Black Republican Council (CBRC)--Integration of Palm Springs--CBRC today--Black Agenda, Inc.--Involvement with the Southern California National Business League.
Volume I
Tape Number: I, Side One
January 9, 1985
Tyler
We'll start by asking Mr. King to trace his family background as far as he cares to and offer as many details as he may know of his family background. Later, we'll see how he fits into that tradition himself. So, certainly from the information, you started tracing your family background in Houston, Texas. Are your family roots originally in Houston? Can you trace your family back prior to your father, grandfather, or even back further?
King
Well, I guess I can go back to my great-grandparents. I never have been much of a roots-type bug, but my family has lived long, lives all the way across the board; they've all lived well into their eighties, nineties, and my [paternal] grandmother [Sadie Nelson King] died earlier, well, about nine months ago, which was into last year, into 1984. She was 110 at the time that she passed. My father [Celestus A. King, Jr.] is presently eighty-three. As I understand it, my family, going back with my grandmother— She was born in Brenham, Texas. That is some place I guess in southeastern Texas. It was a small town. Apparently, the blacks that were there subscribe very much to the work ethic. They were fiercely independent and ended up with their own land and operated their own farm and other agrarian-type things, basically,
Tyler
What years? Can you name any years?
King
Well, my grandmother was born, I believe, in 1874. So this means that prior to 1874 would be the starting point at which I can trace back my family. My family, basically, had a fairly tight unity. That portion of the family was my father's side. There were, I guess, six or seven children that were in the family with my grandmother. My grandmother was the second eldest of that group. The mother, which would've been my great-grandmother, apparently passed on and had left the burden on my grandmother—who was the second eldest child—and the eldest child. My understanding from just talking through the family is that my grandmother took over as sort of the woman of the house and kind of acted as the surrogate mother. They all grew up, never having a minute's trouble, as I understand it, with anything. They grew up so that on Sundays they did what you do on Sundays, which is put on your Sunday go-to-church clothes. They were very orderly in terms of a family. They always had good relations with everyone else in that community. Finally, they migrated over to Houston, and Houston was a budding town and was growing. So it was just a matter of time before they became very engulfed in the activities of Houston. [tape recorder off]
Actually, you had got up to the family moving to Houston. But perhaps let's hold that for a moment, and you might list some of the family names. You said they were farmers. What kind of crops did they grow? Did they own their land? How did they come by it? A few more details like that would give us a pretty good picture of how they actually lived. So you can proceed from there. Were they landowners? What kind of crops did they grow? What did they do with those crops? How well did they market them or whatever?
King
The original family name was Nelson. My grandmother's name was Sadie Nelson. She had an older sister named Bassie, and she had two brothers, one of whom, by the way, is still living. I think he's one hundred and one now. His name was Harry Nelson. There was a younger brother by the name of Jimmy [James] Nelson, who was a very small, petite, but extremely articulate and very bright young man. There was, in addition, two other sisters, one with the name of Loretta, who always through life carried a nickname of Sounce, which was—
Tyler
Sounce?
King
Sounce, yes.
Tyler
How do you spell that?
King
You know, I guess you just have to use your best guess to be sure. But my best guess would be just Sounce,
Tyler
That's in Brenham?
King
I don't know the situation in Brenham but I would assume in Brenham they went to whatever the local black school was.
Tyler
Would that be probably public? Was it a school that handled many grades, many ages in one building, or what?
King
I got the impression on just a couple of random conversations with my grandmother that they went to sort of a one-room, two-room school and that all the kids from the neighborhood were all piled in.
Tyler
They walked to school, right?
They walked to school, but there were horses that they did have. So, I guess, in some cases, they probably had the option of walking or riding on horses. But very, very strong stock of folks, who have always sort of used work as a religion. It was the thing to do. Everybody was orderly, and everybody knew that they had to get up and go to work and that they had to go to school and that they had to stay out of trouble; it was the way they all grew up.
Tyler
Was that typical of the neighborhood, or did this seem to be a unique family tradition? Was it based in religion or what? Necessity?
King
I think to a large extent their religion was work. I think that they really just believed in hard work. They were just fiercely independent as I understand it. They had a rigid code by which they selected friends. If the friends weren't pretty well a mirror reflection of them, they did not particularly associate with them.
Tyler
Was that sort of done naturally? Was that enforced or advocated by Papa Nelson and Sadie Nelson?
King
I think it was. It even hit me when I grew up as a youngster. When I can remember five, six, seven years old, I mean, that was all they pounded in me.
Tyler
In what way? I mean, what would they say?
King
It started from the time you woke up in the morning, you know: "Make your bed, clean your room up, sweep it
Tyler
What kind of crops did they grow in Brenham?
King
I really don't know what they grew down there.
Tyler
Was it a cash, market crop, or exchange, barter?
King
They did enough in order to keep a little cash flow, but I got the impression that they basically lived off of the land. I never kind of got the impression that there were large amounts of money around or that the farm was able to produce enough money for them to actually make a lot of money. But they were able to feed all of the kids and to take care of themselves quite well off of the land itself.
Tyler
What kind of farm animals? You mentioned red
King
I don't have any way of actually knowing, but I would assume that they probably did because their entire life at that particular point, as I understand it, was wrapped around survival off of the land itself. That was the background from which my grandmother came. This is Sadie Nelson King. She became the surrogate mother for the rest of these young folks. I've heard her say, you know, in the mornings that she would get up and see to it that they all got to school. She'd get up a couple of hours before them. Then at night, she was the last one to go to bed and the first one to get up. So she did not have a very easy task as a young lady. When the family moved on to Houston, she ultimately married my grandfather, who was Celestus A. King, Sr. I don't know very much about his parents except that they did grow up or he grew up in the Texas section.
Tyler
Celestus, right? With a T.
King
T-U-S. Yeah.
Tyler
Which is actually your name too, but you just use Celes.
King
I just contracted it because basically that's what people call me.
Tyler
Basically, they do it themselves.
I just decided why fight it.
Tyler
Did they buy this land themselves? Did they inherit it from prior family, and when they left for Houston, did they sell it or maintain it, or what? How many acres?
King
I don't know the size of the acreage that they had.
Tyler
Flatland, trees, rolling hills? This is southeast Texas, right?
King
I've never been to Brenham, Texas. I've been to Houston many times, but never to Brenham, and, you know, it's something that maybe I ought to do at some point along the line. But again, I have not been very much into the roots kind of a situation.
Tyler
By reference from family members, do they ever mention the type of terrain?
King
No, but I do have Harry Nelson, who is one living relative who did grow up with those kids. He's a little over a hundred years old now. And it's a good point. I think I will go and look my granduncle up and just sit and chat with him about those days. It's my last opportunity to do so. I kind of glossed over those things when I had so many relatives that were around, all the aunts and the grandaunts and granduncles. It didn't seem like very unique or precious information at the time because it was
Tyler
Did they own the land prior, or they worked and bought it? You're still not certain about that part?
King
No, but I'm going to unravel those answers for our next interview.
Tyler
You have a merchant minority tradition here, and I'm looking at how did you get property. Where did it start? How did you come by it? But anyway, why did they go to Houston? Greater opportunity? Did a lot of people leave? What was the population of Brenham? You got any impressions of what it was? Was it 1874 your grandmother was born?
King
Yes.
Tyler
You got any idea what the population was there and whether farming was normal for most people?
King
Clearly, farming had to be the dominant industry. I guess to some extent today cattle farming and other things are probably significant in those areas. I'm not— I just don't have that information clear as it goes back to those days, but as I did mention to you I'm going to speak with
Tyler
Of course, now, there are a few more questions. Are there clear impressions that you have picked up? What was the status of your family in this time period in the black community? What would be the ratio of blacks to whites in this community? How were race relations? Were they bad, good? Were there any special family relationships your family had with blacks, a special relationship with whites, was it exceptional, unexceptional? Was there a conscious avoidance or contempt of whites, or was there an imitation or sponsorship by a white family or a black family? What about a church? Was there a relationship with a community church? Say, was a grandparent a deacon, deacon as in a church, leaders of the church, or what?
King
Fortunately, fortunately, if we can defer the answers to those and ultimately relate back to that, I have the two resource people: my dad, who would probably be more aware of that particular period; and then my uncle, as I mentioned, my granduncle, who in fact lived in Brenham. So there is a good possibility that I can put a lot of that together.
The point is to sort of get a cross section or balanced picture of this town and its functioning. Then I think this will raise questions that ultimately you can have on tape for yourself and your own family members to get a good idea [about] what did they do and what role they played with institutions or other people and groups.
King
Yes, certainly. I mean, my children have no idea, probably no concern with— And probably you'd have to press them for them to remember that there was a Brenham, Texas, in our background.
Tyler
It may not be important now, but later, when they think on this or they have their own kids, they'll have it; they'll be glad this was preserved later, [even] if they don't see it now.
King
You're absolutely right.
Tyler
Just like you said one time when all your family members were around and you didn't see the— You had other things, and then now it's thinning out; it will be lost if you don't get it. That's one of the things about foresight. They won't appreciate it now, but later they'll see the full benefits. And other family members where there's one or two who see that the tradition means something and they want to uphold it and build on it— It'll work out okay.
King
You're absolutely right, Bruce. You're absolutely
Tyler
Well, why did they move to Houston? When did they go? Was there any disaster? Was it a free choice? Were they forced out of town? Could have been a race riot and they fled, I don't know. The year they left. Did they sell their land? That sort of thing.
King
I'm making some notes here of a few questions. I'm also—
Tyler
But just proceed as you know, and we can come back at another meeting.
King
We're probably going to have to in order to make the piece have a base of integrity—
Tyler
Oh, this will be edited later and put together.
King
We're probably going to have to skip forward a little bit—
Tyler
Okay.
King
—and then go back and run that reel again, starting in Brenham, Texas, when I have more information. I'm eager for it already myself.
Tyler
Oh, good, good. Well, okay, go ahead with what you know about the move to Houston, what year, any impressions of why, or what happened, just whatever.
King
Well, I'd really like to pick up here with the portion that I have more of an understanding, which would be, oh, maybe, say the last fifty years, which would mean
Tyler
Oh, okay, why don't you, sure.
King
—and moved to Chicago, and then we'll go back and fill in.
Tyler
Okay, good.
King
My mother [Leontyne Butler King] was born in New Orleans and lived there when she was a kid. She did not come from a large family. She came through the normal school system and attended one of the schools, I believe, in Louisiana that was fairly well known, and then went to Knoxville.
Tyler
Was this a high school you're talking about now, a secondary school that she attended?
King
It was college level, so she attended Knoxville College. I don't know very much about it; the old-timers seemed to really respond to Knoxville as a college. Ultimately, she ended up in Chicago with her mother [Hattie Butler Brown] and her aunt [Suggie Scott], and, ultimately, she and my father married.
Tyler
What year was she born?
King
She was born in 1905, and my dad was born in 1901.
Tyler
Now, what family occupation group was she a part of, any particular, with reference to—
King
None of the women ever had any professional kind of
Tyler
This is your mother's side. What occupation was your mother's father? What did he do for a living?
King
He [Papa Butler] worked on the railroad for some time, if my recollection is correct; I don't know how long.
Tyler
Do you know what railroad it was?
King
Maybe. I think it was Illinois Central [Railroad] that he worked for at that particular time.
Tyler
You don't know what he actually did?
King
He was probably a Pullman porter. I can get the more accurate details as I begin to think it through. But that was a source of employment when employment opportunities were extremely limited at that point.
Tyler
So if he was a Pullman porter in the Illinois Central, the New Orleans-Chicago connection was through his porter activities. Any knowledge about where he went? Did he boast or talk about the cities he went to? Did it play any role in his status or recognition in community affairs?
King
You know, he died when I was very young, and my grandmother remarried, and she married a gentleman who I always just responded to as a grandfather, whose name
Tyler
What did he paint?
King
He painted on a piece basis the things that went inside of the parlor cars and the Pullman coaches and the outside of the trains and those kinds of things. And I just remember as a kid that what— I can't remember a dollar figure, but he was always far above the norm in terms of the money that he would bring home, and there was always sort of a little bit of pride about the fact that he was able to be a technician and to be able to make—
Tyler
A craftsman, right? A skilled laborer. Was it through any special circumstances he got into that, through school, on the job promotion, personality, special connections? How did he happen— Was it ever discussed how he happened to become that sort of craftsman painter?
King
I only knew that he had the job; I did not know about the training. But it was a skill-level job, and that's why he was paid by the piece on the things that he did, rather— He was not an hourly employee.
Tyler
Was he self-employed then, and he just contracted with them, or was he employed by them? This sounds like he was sort of contracted.
King
No, he worked directly for the railroad people, but
Tyler
Of course, the Pullman porter for blacks had high standards.
King
Yes.
Tyler
In terms of income, tips, they were middle-class property owners as a group.
King
Yes, they were.
Tyler
Now, did his income fluctuate? Was it consistent since he— You know, because if he's working by the piece, it sort of meant he was consistently employed. Either he may have, his income may have fluctuated, where there were months— Was it seasonal? Or were there months he was unemployed but made enough to carry him over?
King
Most of the time he was employed.
Tyler
Okay.
King
There were some brief periods I can remember, I think, between trains or whatever it would be. But they
Tyler
This is in New Orleans?
King
No, this was in Chicago, when I was a kid, and I was always greatly impressed by the trains; it was a big thing. The quality of the work that went into those, especially those deluxe Pullman cars and things, was such that it was sort of the top of the line that you could possibly get.
Tyler
And you were quite aware of that as a little kid?
King
Oh, yeah, my grandfather made me aware of it.
Tyler
So he told you about— Well, of course, he took you with him there, so he was quite proud of his line of work himself?
King
He was very proud of it.
Tyler
Was he in a union?
King
No, there were no unions.
Tyler
Was there ever any attempt or struggles about that, any comments about that, or was it not a problem?
King
Well, he was very much a supporter of the people who owned the trains, whether it was the Pullman [Palace Car] Company, or whether it was the Union Pacific [Railroad]; they worked for various companies. Union Pacific, I can
Tyler
He had a different mentality than, say, a person who had a strictly employee, semi-unskilled, or semi-skilled—
King
Yeah, he was very much in favor of the company. He was a pro-company person.
Tyler
It didn't cause him any problems, did it?
King
No, it didn't cause him any problems at all. In fact, most of the people that were friends of his that were working out there (and there were a few who did come around occasionally), they too were all trying to do what they could to help the company, because in helping the company they saw that that helped them.
Tyler
Of course, of course. Now, how long do you recall, how many years did you go to the yards? Did any other things special happen, or special occurrences in that relationship? Why did he sort of—
King
Well, I think it was an opportunity for him to show
Tyler
So he took all of the family members, right?
King
He would take my grandmother on my mother's side, and he would take me, and once in a while there would be another member or so of the family. And it was an important event when a new train was ready to hit the tracks. It was front page in the Chicago Tribune, and the other paper— I've forgotten the name of the other one at this point, but I think it ended up being the [Chicago] Sun-Times or something, but it had another name at that point. And it was a major event. The streamliners that were coming across the country in the early thirties, they were made, or put together, or the final touches, or whatever it was, were done in South Chicago.
Tyler
Now, did he pick this skill up in New Orleans and move to Chicago with it?
King
I don't know where he got the skill from. When I became aware of him in that whole scenario was when my grandmother married him, and he was working for the railroad at that time.
Tyler
Had he worked as a young—
I don't have the slightest idea. He came into my life almost in a fixed position. And I never knew very much about his background, except that he had an intense pride in seeing to it that my grandmother was well taken care of and that she had the kind of things that were necessary to keep the family going. One of the things that he used to do is he would bring his check in, and they had a strict budget, and he had a certain amount that he would go and frolic with on Saturday nights, and he spent it to the penny, and everything always just worked out quite orderly. And even when other people, other families, were having real difficulty, he always seemed to have a job; just once in a while, between trains, if they didn't have a train to be worked on, but he was one of the better technicians, and they always—
Tyler
Now, this is the thirties, the Depression, right?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
So he was well insulated from that.
King
He was insulated from it, but the psychological impact of the Depression did hit him, because he knew that if he lost that one job, that there was no place else to go and work. I can remember him talking about the importance of him being the best, because he could not go and find another job anyplace that would pay that kind of money to him.
Did he make any comments about why he felt that way? Because I know there probably was— Was there a race factor? Of course, we know that jobs were difficult anyway. Also, well, did he ever talk about any race factors?
King
Never do I recall him having much difficulty along the racial, from a racial standpoint. I never really remember that being a factor in what he did. He did it and he was a craftsman and did it well, and apparently these were black jobs.
Tyler
These were black jobs in general?
King
In general.
Tyler
At the wage scale?
King
At that high wage scale, most of the people that he was working with were black. Now, the people over them and the people under them were not necessarily that, but he didn't have any black supervisors as such, and he was able to work overtime if he chose to because they paid him by the piece, and it worked out just great for him. I remember that. He was always in a position to throw me a nickel once in a while—hey, that was a big thing, you know—and say, "Hey, go and get an ice-cream cone," or something like that. For a nickel you could get an ice-cream cone that you couldn't see over, it was so big. [laughter]
That's sort of amazing, because I would— Normally, you would suspect that that was a well-paying job, well-paying by black or white standards, or working-class standards in general; there was no bumping or racial ranking to bump them from those jobs? Or at least you're not aware of any pressure by whites to bump blacks from those jobs. They were pretty secure, it seems.
King
They were. They were part of that whole scene, and, yes, they were secure, and they had those jobs and they kept them. I don't ever recall any black-white tensions that he had from the job. And I can remember that everyone that I saw when I was a kid when we went out to the job, it was always very, very cordial, and they would always speak to him with the normal, in the normal kind of a way, which would be a level of respect as a person, and smiles and the cordiality were all there. I never saw any racial conflict at all any of the times that I went out to the place where these railroad cars were painted.
Tyler
Let me hold here for a moment.
Tape Number: II, Side One
February 27, 1985
Tyler
Well, when we talked last, we talked about Chicago, but you tell me that you picked up some information on the earlier period in Brenham, Texas, right?
King
I had a discussion with my father [Celestus A. King, Jr.]; it wasn't as long as I wanted it to be, but it never is when I talk to my dad, because he's a most interesting person. He began to talk about it, and I told him, "Hey, just ramble along in terms of discussion, don't worry too much about putting it in some kind of real context," and he went back to the latter part of last century in looking at the family, and he talked about his grandfather, whose name was George [Nelson]. One of the questions that you would ask me was, what did George do for a living? How did he survive? I learned a lot of things that I really wasn't that aware of about my own family as a result of this. My dad tells me that he was a barber and that he had his own barber shop and that five days a week that he worked in that barber shop, and because of that he knew everything that was going on, not only in the town, but for miles around. He was a source of information and, I guess as we sometimes describe it around here, the rumor parade. So my dad went on to say that on weekends—and he apparently was a very industrious guy—on weekends he was a Baptist
Now, it turns out that as I further discussed this matter with my dad, he tells me that the reason why they moved from Brenham, Texas—the entire family picked up and left—was because of a lynching that occurred in that town. My dad also tells me that in that town today that the very facility, whether it was a tree or whatever it happened to be, is still in that town as a reminder to the people that are there. It was a matter of a black who—
I shall look forward to going back there. I had talked to a person some time ago, who was a relative of Lucius Lomax [Sr.], who also grew up in that town, and it was one of their grandkids or whatever who went back to that town and then wrote me a letter and then sent me a copy of the piece that they put together which appeared in some newspaper. I probably have it down in my files; I did read it in detail. And it just became literally too tough for blacks to continue living in Brenham, Texas. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Tyler
So quite a few other people left because of that lynching?
King
Yes, most of the black people that were in Brenham, Texas, left Brenham, Texas. They simply moved out, and they went to Houston.
Tyler
So there must have been threat of greater violence, or that was just so shocking?
King
Well, I gather that it was both, that this was a very shocking situation and also the continuing possibility of violence. There were some very fine people that came out of that area. All were hardworking, all made a real
Tyler
What year did the lynching take place? It would be the year they moved.
King
I asked my dad, and he did tell me the year, and I think it was something like 1886, but I will recheck that date with him. My grandmother [Sadie Nelson King], who just died last year in 1984, was born in Brenham, and then they moved over to Houston. She was born about that time; she lived to be one hundred and ten years old, so the family was still there one hundred and ten years ago for sure, and it was shortly after she was born. There were a number of children on my father's side, at my grandparents' level. There were probably, I guess, seven or eight children. It is down now to the point where only one is living; he's a hundred and two at this point, and he lives here in Inglewood. His name is Harry Nelson. But every one of those of that King family, which was really the Nelson family at that time, every one of those folks lived to be well into their eighties and nineties. It was most unusual to hear of them even being ill; they just lived
Tyler
Now, what happened to most of these people's property? Did they dispose of it, or what?
King
It's my intention to go out and speak with Harry Nelson, who probably was very familiar with whatever happened to the property. I'm not too sure whether or not he was in fact born, probably was, in Brenham, but as a kid, he would undoubtedly have known whether or not the property was sold, expropriated, or whatever could have happened at that point, but it was almost, as I understand it, as far as the legend goes, that my whole family virtually packed up and just got out of Brenham, Texas.
Tyler
Okay, was that the extent of the story that he told you? Was there additional information, stories about Brenham, related?
King
Apparently, my family lived a fairly uneventful life: they went to school; they were all well-educated, given the circumstance and the needs at that time; all of them, as far as I know, I cannot ever remember any of the people that were at my grandmother's level ever even being
Tyler
Was this Harry that was telling you this information?
King
This was my father.
Tyler
Oh, your father. Did he say anything, how did your great-grandfather George become a barber, how did he become a minister, how did that happen, or he just stated it?
King
He just stated it as a fact, and I intend to sit down and have some lengthy conversations with both my father and my granduncle, because the time is fleeting along these lines, and I think that it will end up that I will probably be the resource for my family.
Tyler
Well, why not? Well, okay, is that the extent of what you've picked up so far about Brenham, again until—
King
Yes, it is.
Tyler
Okay, well, why not shift back to Chicago where we left off? [laughter]
Okay.
Tyler
Some of the questions I have here that—because we're almost ready to jump off to coming to California. Let's see now, did you give us the year that you went to Chicago?
King
Well, I was born there September 18, 1923, at Saint Luke's Hospital, a hospital that on many times I went by.
Tyler
Saint Luke's. How did you happen to get born there?
King
Well, I didn't have very much to do with it, but I was very pleased, when I, you know, I was very pleased that we were able to be at a private hospital. All along, it was regarded as somewhat of a plus. Many people were born, of course, at the county hospital; those were some difficult days.
Tyler
What was the county hospital?
King
Well, the Cook County Hospital, and that was where people went, I guess, who could not muster up the dollars in order to handle those situations.
Tyler
Saint Luke was then a church-sponsored hospital?
King
Well, it had a church name, so I gather that it was church sponsored. Back in those days, I guess, the churches could afford to individually probably be the deciding financial factor as far as hospitals were concerned. I guess as time has gone along, hospitals have
I grew up in Chicago on the South Side. The section was described as "Woodlawn," and it was regarded as certainly one of the better black communities that was in Chicago. We were probably about six or seven miles from Lake Michigan, and all of the area, probably five miles of that was an all-white area; there were no blacks at all that lived in that area. It was called Hyde Park, and Hyde Park, I guess named after the Hyde Park in London. There were little strips that we could go down in order to get to the lake in the summer. We used to take the trolley car, and the trolley car, the cost was all of three cents to get on it, and you could ride across either Sixty-seventh Street, which was very close to where I was, or Sixty-third Street, both of those were major arterial streets that went to the lake.
When we got out to the lake, there was a small area where blacks could swim, and it was fenced off, and you had to stay inside of the fenced area that they had. Now, the fenced area was sufficiently wide, and there was enough room, and there was enough sand for the people that went out there, and, of course, the water was no different, whether you were there or not. I grew up under those circumstances, and I pretty well expected that when you
Tyler
Now, who established the area?
King
The area was established before I got there, but it was vigorously enforced by two things: one, the blacks themselves would see to it that blacks stayed inside the area because they did not want to get into racial flareups, because generally there were many, many more whites around than there were blacks. So blacks themselves saw to it, "Hey, don't go over there." I can remember when I was a kid, and really it never bothered me, not in the least did it bother me.
When it began to bother me was at a time when I was beginning to learn to swim a little bit better, and I went down to the local YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association] almost every day, so my swimming ability was improving, and I wanted to swim a little further out, and I wanted to swim a little further down. Then there was a place that was about a half a mile down where there was a bridge, and this bridge went into a lagoon and a marina where there were some local people, well, some people that had boats who, whether they were local or not, I'm not that certain. And the white boys used to dive off of this bridge. Somebody would stand on the other side and holler that there's no boat coming, and they'd dive off this bridge. This bridge
And at that point, my swimming ability was going up, and I had been to the YMCA camp, and I'd been awarded a little triangle that I'm sure I'll never forget—goodness knows I wish I still had it—and I think the name of it was Camp Dowagiac up in Michigan, and it was a lake up there, and it was about a mile wide. And I swam across the lake. To me that was a real great event bcause of all the youngsters that were up there, there were only a dozen or so that had swam across the lake. It really wasn't dangerous because they'd lead you in a rowboat; a couple of your friends would get in, stay in a rowboat, so if you ever really got tired, you could always, you know, climb up in the boat, as most people did, because most people didn't make it. And now that I look back, hell, it was all psychological because I'm sure that most of the people that were swimming could swim it easy, but the fact that "it's a mile, it's a mile," that was the big topic of discussion.
So, anyway, I'd got to the point where I could swim pretty good, so one day I made up my mind. I said, "I'm
I had this half a mile or so to negotiate to get back to the black section in order to come up, so I swam out a considerable distance. My normal breathing style would have been that my head would have come up toward the beach, but I picked up air looking out toward the center of the lake, and swam this half a mile. And then when I got down to the section where I could see that fence, then I began to cut on, and then I came up in the black section. Well, word got out that I, you know, had done that. I think the next day I came back and all—
Tyler
Word got out to who?
King
Word got out to the community.
Tyler
Black and white?
Oh, no, not to the white community, but to the black community. I never knew what the white community was thinking anyway, never had any way of knowing it. Well, all the youngsters, then, everybody was saying, "We want to go down there." And everybody wanted to be able to come back and say that they had done the same thing.
The following day I went down there, and this time when I went down, I did a dive, because a number of people followed me down there. This time I had someone to watch for me, and as a direct result of that a stream of people began then, from the black end, began to go down and dive and swim this half a mile. No incident ever occurred. They knew we were doing it; the word then ultimately was out to the people that were watching the park and other kind of things. It was completely uneventful. We probably had the biggest psychological problem, but it didn't seem to really bother anybody else. We stayed way out when we swam this half a mile, and, of course, we were always afraid that someone may drown because it was a long swim. Nothing ever happened to anybody, and we kind of worked it out so that everybody went in twos rather than just one at a time. But that was the first time I'd really been on the vanguard of breaking into something that threw me sort of apart from the group and tossed me out; that was leadership.
How old were you then?
King
Let's see, maybe twelve, eleven, something like that, and that was leadership. I didn't realize it was leadership.
Tyler
But it still had a big impact on you then; you knew it was important.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
And other people thought it was.
King
All the guys, all the big guys that were around, you know, that had gotten their lifeguard credentials and junior lifeguard credentials, they could all swim it, but they didn't have the courage to swim through that white zone, and it just didn't occur to me. I said, "They can't see me, they can't tell. One way or the other, if I stay out, fine, I can make it." And I think that was one of the things that helped me develop an attitude that whatever other folks are doing, you have to make your own appraisal of situations, look at your abilities, look at the task, and go for it. Somewhat like my attitude now. And I guess I've used it as a principle, and that is that my attitude is basically that if you have a bird in the hand and there are two in the bush, and you look at that bush pretty clear, and you can see what the prospects are of being able to get them, you let go of that one bird, and you go for the two. [laughter] But you have to be able to really
I never had any excessive high-level athletic skills, but when I say that I was never on the basketball team, except when we'd go to camp, I was on the team that was sort of adhocly put together. I didn't have enough interests in terms of the track team to want to stay around at night and run up and down the halls. And that's basically where the track team ran. When it was cold in Chicago, you would run up and down the halls. They would even set hurdles up, you know, in the halls, and you'd run down the halls, and that was after school. None of that really appealed to me, even though I had respectable times.
Tyler
Now what school—junior high, high school?
King
When I made it to high school— I guess I should back up just a little bit and talk about grade school. I went to a school called McCosh Grammar School; it was a grammar school in the Woodlawn area of South Chicago. I moved through the school program with minimal difficulty. I skipped one half-grade, I think it was in the fourth grade.
Tyler
So you had an A-B system?
King
Well, they had an advancement system, if you were able to be in—it was somewhat like the top 2 or 3 percent of the class—you could skip a grade.
The year was divided into half a grade, you know, like remember L.A. [Los Angeles] used to have A-B, B6, A6?
King
Yes, I understand now. It's been a long time since I've heard the term, I'd kind of forgotten. You're absolutely right, there was an A and a B; what I skipped was a half a year, not a full year. They didn't have a system where you skipped a full year, but you could skip half a grade, so you could skip and maybe miss the latter part of, say, the fourth grade. And I think I went into fourth and then did the first half and skipped the second half, and went into the fifth grade.
Tyler
Who picked up on that? The school system picked up on that, or did your parents push it, or what?
King
It was really my teacher. The teachers were all local; most of the teachers lived in the same area.
Tyler
Black teachers?
King
Black teachers that we had; the principal and the assistant principal and the administration crew were white, but most of the teachers were black teachers.
Tyler
Male, female?
King
Female, mostly. I don't remember any male teachers that I had. When I was in kindergarten, first grade, like that, we had white teachers. When we got second, third, fourth, fifth, along in there, they were black teachers in the black community.
Were they fully credentialed teachers?
King
Fully credentialed teachers in Chicago.
Tyler
Were they graduates of northern or southern schools?
King
You know, I really don't even recall, except that most had moved there from the South—their families had— but the younger ones had all finished college, locally, and I don't even recall the names of most of my teachers. A few I do at this particular point. But I can remember, my teacher would come to my house, not because things were bad, but just to come there and talk to my parents: what I was doing with arithmetic, how I was doing in other subjects. Teacher would get off of work, just like I'd get out of school. Almost once a month, one of my teachers would be there. Now, I think at that time we had two teachers, one in the morning and a different one in the afternoon. That's my best recollection, I can't remember at what grade that started. In the very early grades, of course, it was one teacher for all day, but they really— There was no such thing as not doing your homework. There was no such thing really as even showing up late for school. I mean these teachers, there was so much communication going on between your parents and the teachers, until you didn't have any choice.
Tyler
Was this common? So this wasn't particularly you
King
Oh, yes. And even some of the community activities and socializing activities that occurred, those teachers and their families would be there. I remember this teacher that skipped me a grade, she just lived a couple of blocks from where I lived, so we were all out there, same community.
Tyler
So you might see them at the store or church or wherever.
King
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was somewhat of a neighborhood thing even in those days, a big town like Chicago. You know, you did have public transportation there that would allow you to go a long way from your home, but, of course, nothing like today when everybody has their own automobile and they can jump in it and go twenty, thirty miles in a comparatively short period of time. But there we did have the elevated cars and we had the streetcar system, and you could go out of your area, but in spite of that, you spent most of your time within a few blocks where your home was.
Tyler
You mean kids or adults?
King
Kids. You just simply didn't go. Now, the big thing was to get a bicycle, and when you got the bicycle, you did have your own transportation, and you could go. I
Tyler
You had got a bike when?
King
I got a bike fairly early.
Tyler
This is a two-wheeler, right?
King
Two-wheeler, it was a twenty-six-inch— That I remember, because all the larger kids had twenty-eight-inch wheels. That was the big thing, twenty-six and twenty-eight-inch wheels. I guess ten, eleven, twelve years old, I was interested in flying. Nobody else in that community had any interest whatsoever.
Tyler
Black.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
How did your interest develop in flying?
King
I don't have the slightest idea, I don't have the slightest idea. I don't even know, I can't remember any
Tyler
Not even the thirty-foot dive?
King
No, that didn't have anything to do with that. That was all about water, and I used to like to swim.
Tyler
Did you see the planes fly over?
King
On occasion, I'd see the planes fly over. I knew that there was an airport where blacks used to fly, Harlem Airport, and once in a while we would hear about some black that was flying, and that was a big event.
Tyler
The Flying Eagle, the guy from Harlem? [laughter]
King
Yeah, this Harlem Airport was a place that on a few occasions I was able to get out there. It was owned by a woman, by a black woman [Willa Brown].
Tyler
You're not talking about New York Harlem.
King
No, in Chicago, it was called the Harlem Airport.
Tyler
Any particular reason that was the actual name?
King
Probably they named it because of Harlem; that was the name of it, Harlem Airport. That was the only black airport. And, of course, nobody had any money to fly in those days, but once in a while they would get up.
Tyler
Did your bike have anything to do with it, that you could get out and explore, and that was something to explore, like a museum or something?
King
I was interested in aviation before the bike. I remember even going out there on the streetcar, and that
Tyler
Do you remember your first trip there? What sparked it? Somebody took you, or did you always go on your own when you got involved?
King
I kind of slipped out there. I never told my parents, I never told anybody. I used to try to get some of the kids to go along with me, and none of them had any interest.
Tyler
Why, was nothing in their consciousness?
King
No, it just didn't even ring bells at all. So I'd go out there, and I would go to the end of the runway. Planes would be taking off, and I would see them go, and get a large bottle of soda. You could get a big, huge bottle of soda for six cents, and I'd stay there and kind of nurse that soda along. I'd stay just as long as I could, and I couldn't get into the airport where the planes were, those kind of things.
Tyler
Was it fenced off?
King
Yeah, it was fenced off.
Tyler
What time would you go? You'd go the weekends in the morning?
King
I'd go out on the weekends, yeah, and stay out there all day long.
Just watching the planes?
King
Yeah, and I'd walk around the perimeter; I didn't get inside. I never even walked in the lobby portion of it. You know, I'd kind of peep in there, you know, and then keep on going. But I didn't go inside the lobby and those things. And I was around on the outside of the fence, just like you'd see kids going to watch baseball games, well, I was going to watch planes.
Tyler
Why were you on the outside? You said the black airport, then you said this other airport.
King
The Harlem Airport was too far out for me to go; it was just too many miles for me to be able to make it on my bike, to make it there and then to get back. It was considerably further.
Tyler
But you said it was a black airport. What was the airport you were going to?
King
Okay, I was going to the municipal metro airport [Chicago Municipal Airport].
Tyler
Is that what it was called then? Before O'Hare [International Airport].
King
Right, right.
Tyler
This was a white airport, was it?
King
Yes.
Tyler
There was a black and a white airport? Was this segregated?
Okay, the black airport was nothing but a strip. It didn't have any asphalt on it, nothing. It was just where some planes were, some hangars. Some planes were there; they were hangared down, where the other was a commercial venture. They were flying DC-3's out of there, which was the big airplane at that time, and the other place had Stinsons where the two-seater tandem-type arrangement without tops, so that they really looked good. You could see a pilot in there, you could see him fly. And, of course, there were controls in both seats, so that two people could go up. They also had some little small craft like Piper Cubs and little Taylors.
Tyler
This is at Harlem.
King
No, not at the Harlem, at the metro municipal airport, yeah. They had the real biggies, like the DC-3's, which, of course, now you could put almost under the tail section of one of the large planes now, but it was a big airplane, very remarkably safe. They are still flying that airplane, by the way, those DC-3's. It's still a workhorse, you know, in many places, after all these years. It's funny how the technology supposedly improved so much, but the things that were good before are still good.
Tyler
Now, why were the airports in Chicago strictly segregated?
Well, the Harlem Airport was really just a plot of land, and it had some of the trappings of an airport; it was not a commercial airport. I'm talking about like a small, private airport.
Tyler
The blacks could use the municipal airport, too?
King
Now that I think back on the situation, I don't even remember seeing blacks out there getting on airplanes, and it's pretty clear to me and I just don't even remember seeing blacks going in and out of the place. I don't know whether the services were offered to blacks, but I just don't even recall seeing blacks as I think back on the situation.
Tyler
When you first started going to the municipal airport, how old were you?
King
Ten. Ten years old.
Tyler
So that was probably just before the dive you made. You said you were about eleven or twelve when you made the dive. So you had this prior to that dive.
King
Yes, well, now, I did buy the little airplanes at the Woolworth five-and-ten-cent store, and I used to sit in my front room on the floor, and that rug that I, that was under me there, I recently gave to my granddaughter [Tyie Renson] and, of course, my parents had it before my parents gave it to me—and now it's in my granddaughter's bedroom.
Tyler
This is a rug?
It's a rug, yeah.
Tyler
Someone made it?
King
No, just an ordinary, nice, front-room rug, nothing spectacular about it, except that it means something to us in the family. But, anyway, I used to sit up there on that rug for hours and hours putting together aircrafts.
Tyler
Plastic with glue?
King
Wasn't plastic, it was real wood at that time. Whittle the wood slivers, I'd make airplanes, and I began to understand what lift was and how you could determine the coefficient of lift, and tail sections, and what elevators did, and the ailerons did, and what the empennage section was, and how much thrust was necessary. And, of course, my big thrust was a rubber band. [laughter]
Tyler
Yes, yes, yes.
King
But the fascination with airplanes was absolutely just undying with me. More than almost anything, I wanted to be a pilot. I just thought that that was the top of the arc, to become a pilot. My mind was so set on it, until it was just as natural for me to end up in the air force and have wings pinned on me, as it is for someone who is seven foot tall winding up playing basketball. I knew that I was going to be a pilot, and I knew I was going to be a good pilot, a great pilot in my own perception. I think it was something that was important. Because by the time I was
Tyler
That was World War II.
King
That was World War II. That's kind of skipping ahead. The question about moving to California was a fairly complex situation as far as my family was concerned.
Tyler
Let me hold on here. This is going to run out.
Tape Number: II, Side Two
March 5, 1985
Tyler
We were talking about your youth experiences in Chicago last time. To take up from there a bit, did your family go to church, or join any church there in Chicago?
King
My mother [Leontyne Butler King] attended church every Sunday; she never missed. Church was a part not only of our religious life, but a part of our social life. There were activities that arose out of attending church, and it was an absolute must. On the other side, my dad had minimal interest in church activities, but [he] would always go along to the more fashionable social things that arose out of churches. My first trip from Chicago was coming out with a group that was made up in Reverend Cobbs's church. Cobbs was a nationally known and recognized preacher, Clarence Cobbs. He owned the church at Forty-third [Street] and Wabash [Avenue] in Chicago, and had a very, very large congregation.
Tyler
What was the name of the church?
King
I am trying to remember the name of the church, and I simply cannot remember it. It was an independently styled church. They were one of the first churches in Chicago to have a Sunday night radio program, so the level of popularity of the church was quite high. Reverend Cobbs used to come out here and bring an entourage with him every
Tyler
During what, the thirties?
King
Back in the thirties and the forties and the fifties and the sixties. It was an annual kind of a situation for him to come out.
Tyler
For what?
King
It was part of the church activities; generally in Chicago, it's cold in January. He also used to spend a lot of his leisure time going to Santa Anita, out at the race track. He wasn't that much of a bettor, but he liked the environment out there, he liked the background of the mountains, and how it looked in California. He was a hard worker though, and generally when he was in California, they would always have a number of activities for him, some that were directly social, but most that were built around his church activities. He was linked into a church that was one of the dominant churches in Los Angeles. The name of that church was the Independent Church of Christ, which was at Eighteenth [Street] and Paloma [Street], and it was a Reverend Diggs who was the minister there. I can't recall whatever happened to Diggs (probably he died), and a very young man by the name of Clayton [D.] Russell ascended to becoming the minister at that church. So as a result of that, our interaction with the church— It was our first trip to California, and I think if I'm not mistaken, that was
As I kind of think back, in Chicago, I remember we used to get sweet potatoes and go build a fire, and we would sit around and huddle around the fire, and we'd do that all winter long and sort of roast the potatoes. Of course, things were really, really tough back in those thirties, and in particular it was very difficult for my family. My mother did have a job: she worked at Jacob's Dress Shop that was located on Forty-seventh Street near South Park Way, which later, by the way, many years later was renamed Martin Luther King Avenue. But my mother worked there: she worked six days a week, she worked generally fairly long hours, but that was the custom. However, she did quite well because she was very well known on the South Side of Chicago as a young lady and many of her friends came to the store to make purchases, so she ultimately became very significant in that store operation. Now, times were tough then, and it was very difficult to get a job. My dad was out of work for a considerable period of time, and I can remember we had a Mormon automobile, which was at that time a very expensive automobile, and very few people— [background noises; tape
Tyler
Well, you were talking about—
King
Oh, the difficult days in Chicago. I can remember on one occasion when I walked out to the front of our house when we lived in an area called Woodlawn, which was regarded as one of the better black communities on the South Side.
Tyler
What street did you live on?
King
Saint Lawrence Avenue, which ran into Washington Park, where there were a lot of activities all summer long. I remember walking outside and looking at one of the tires on the Mormon, and one of the tires had worn so thin until the innertube was sticking out of the side of the tire, and my dad had to be extremely careful how he drove it, because if he went up next to the curb, well, he would tear the innertube, and the tire would go flat. But he was an excellent driver, and we got around, a few gallons of gas here, and a few there. But my dad refused to accept any sort of assistance. We lived in a duplex, in that there was— It was a two-apartment building, and my parents owned their own building at that time. We ultimately had to move out; I guess the payment on the building was thirty dollars a month or something.
Tyler
Now, this is an apartment building.
King
Two units, one on top of the other.
And both of those were apartments, right?
King
Right. Very large.
Tyler
Was it isolated like a single building or was it joined in?
King
It was a single building that had two apartments, one above and one down. By the way, my dad still owns a building here that's a duplex, and he lived there for twenty-five years, and it was similar with two apartments, one above the other. It was a very nice place to live. I had my own room. It had a full dining room. I can't remember that we had two baths, I think we only had one bath.
Tyler
For the two apartments—
King
No, these were completely separate apartments.
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
I think there was one bath, and it was a two-bedroom apartment, but it had [a] front room, [a] dining room, [and] kitchen, adequate closets. It was a very nice place to grow up in. And so was the community of Woodlawn; the people out there were very nice; they were all trying to get someplace. You could see it and you could feel it, that the people were interested in moving along. Most of the people that were out there had gone as far as they could educationally at that time. The norms at that time, of course, were that if you finished high school, you had
Tyler
Any meats, milks?
King
I don't really recall the milk part, I just remember a lot of dry-type things that they used to have. My dad refused to accept relief, so it really meant that there were a lot of times that we just about had no food in the house.
Tyler
Was this relief carried out by the federal government or the county or the state?
King
I think it was probably the county or the city. I
Tyler
Is that a black-owned business?
It was completely black-owned. My dad became the controller, and they did quite well. Murray's is a product that is still on the shelves of drugstores today. And it appears to me to be the same identical product. It's a hair preparation, and, of course, they had a few other things too.
Tyler
We used to call it stiff grease.
King
I think it's the same today as it was back in the early thirties. As time went along, though, instead of Murray's actually growing, Murray's kind of went down a little bit. But Murray—
Tyler
Any sense of time?
King
Oh, I guess about '34 or something like that, give or take a year.
Tyler
Was that the year your father worked there? `Thirty-four?
King
My dad, I think, worked there like [in] '31, '32, '33, along on that particular time.
Tyler
How long did he work for Your Taxi Company?
King
I can't really recall, but it was several years that he worked with Your Taxi. I think he had part of the ownership of Your Taxi. I can't remember all of the details because I was fairly young at the time.
Tyler
But this was just prior to going to work for Murray's?
Yes.
Tyler
So he worked at Murray's '31, '32, '33.
King
And then about '34 or so, I think the job at Murray's played out. Murray's was a great situation for me, because we had the opportunity to go up to what was called Murray's Ranch. It was in Michigan, I've forgotten the city that it was in, but it meant that during the summer on Sundays we would leave early in the morning, on some occasions, and sometimes on Saturdays, generally once a month or so. And we'd go up, and we'd stay at Murray's Ranch. It was called a farm. I guess I've been on the West Coast so long, I call everything a ranch, but it was a farm. Up there they had all kinds of animals. It gave me an opportunity to be exposed to a little bit of an agrarian-type life, and how people lived off the land. His place was very elegant up there, because on a comparative basis, he was very well-off. [Charles] Murray had a very good cash flow, and those kind of things. So the Murray's situation was very good. I really enjoyed that period.
Tyler
How many summers did you get to go?
King
It seemed to me like it was two or three summers.
Tyler
You said, "We would go." Who would that be?
King
The family, the whole family.
Tyler
The whole family?
King
Yeah, well, the whole family consisted of three of
Tyler
How long would this last?
King
One day or two days. Sometimes one day, sometimes two days.
Tyler
Would you drive up?
King
Yeah, we'd drive up to his place.
Tyler
He would be there?
King
Oh, yes.
Tyler
Would other families be there, or just your family?
King
Generally two or three families, and in general it was someone that they wanted to do business with, and they would invite them up, so they used it for commercial purposes in addition to it being a self-sustaining farm. There was, I believe, a couple, a man and his wife, who stayed up there all the time. And I can remember that Mr. Murray had a large automobile, I can't remember what it was, but it was something like a Pierce-Arrow, something like that, some very impressive automobile. He also had a son, who we called Junior Murray, who was extremely athletic. He was a few years older than I was, and he was somewhat of a role model for me to try to follow. He was a good role model to a point, but the time that I was around him, he was an excellent role model.
Tyler
In what way?
Well, he was athletic. He was a wrestler at school. He had earned several letters, and he had done very well in school.
Tyler
This is at what age level now?
King
I guess we're talking about a kid who was fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, and at the time I was probably like ten, maybe eleven years old.
Tyler
So he was ninth, tenth grade?
King
Yeah, well, he was in high school. I kind of remember he'd just gotten into high school, and he made the wrestling team, and that was big news around Chicago.
Tyler
Oh, really? What high school?
King
It's hard for me to remember even the high school that he attended. But all the local papers carried the story, Chicago Defender, there were several other papers around. I think one was called the [Chicago] Bee and they carried the fact that this kid, you know, had made the wrestling team.
Tyler
Why was that so important?
King
Well, it was simply important because he was a local kid who looked like he was on the way up.
Tyler
In wrestling?
King
In everything. It just looked like he had all the avenues that were out there and available, and that there was just nothing that could stop him. It was going to be
Tyler
Now, this was in the Woodlawn area where they would have gone to high school?
King
I lived in Woodlawn, and it seemed like to me that the Murrays lived in a more affluent neighborhood than ours, even though ours was sort of above the average as far as black communities were concerned. But it seems like to me that they lived someplace near Drexel Boulevard and Cottage Grove [Avenue] and along there, which was an older section of town with very large homes, very large, elaborate homes at that particular point. A few of them had been taken over by blacks. They clearly were in an economic class that allowed them to have those kind of things.
Tyler
So your neighborhood, in terms of racial make-up, and the neighborhood that the Murrays lived in were what?
King
Oh, they were both black neighborhoods. The only
Later on, I was to go back to Chicago when the lady who's probably been the most important part of my life, Anita [Givens King], when we kind of eloped and went back to Chicago and got married, but I guess that's jumping ahead.
Tyler
Well, were the schools—what was the racial makeup of the school you went to in Chicago and the school that Murray Jr. went to? Were they the same schools, different schools?
King
They were different schools. I don't really recall where he was attending school, as I had mentioned, but the school that I attended, McCosh Grammar School, was all black, except some of the teachers were white and all of the administrators were white. It was an excellent school. You could not attend McCosh Grammar School without learning. There was no such thing as anybody going through there without learning reading, writing, and arithmetic; it
Tyler
Why?
King
We didn't have the money to use it.
Tyler
But it was working, right?
King
It was there and it was working, but you couldn't use it.
Tyler
The kids couldn't use it? I mean you couldn't use it.
King
No one really used it, my mother and dad hardly ever used it. And I just don't hardly ever remember making a phone call on it. It was there.
Tyler
They just would receive calls? Or was it for extreme emergencies?
King
Well, we didn't even receive that many calls. I mean, it was tough back in those days. Each call cost a nickle. And there was a little box that was inside of your home, and when you got ready to use that phone, you picked it up and you dropped that nickel in there. We didn't have
Tyler
Oh. It was like the public phones now? It's in your house, but you had to pay to use it.
King
That is correct.
Tyler
Oh, really, I didn't know that.
King
Yeah, you had to pay to use it back in the thirties. Everytime you made a call you had to drop a nickel in it.
Tyler
I guess that was before technology got ahead now where they can gauge it.
King
That was one way people kept phones though, because it kept them off the phone, because they didn't have the nickel. They couldn't spare that nickel. A nickel would go a long way. You look at one of these large one-liter bottles, which—of course, we were using ounces at that time—but you could buy a twenty-five-ounce (which was like a fifth of a gallon) big bottle of soda for six cents. I mean, that was enough to carry you for the whole day, you know, back in those days. You could buy a loaf of bread for a dime. You could get some rice and some dry beans for a half a dollar; I mean, you could put a pretty good meal on the table. I grew up eating lima beans, navy beans, black-eyed peas; once in a while we were able to have some sort of meat in them. I can remember just as clear as yesterday seeing a sign across the street from where my
Tyler
Why?
King
Well, it put a genuine level of self-esteem in me that, whatever we have to do, that we will work. We will find work, and we will maintain ourselves, and we really don't need the state to come in, or the county probably as it was in that case, and handle our problems. Whatever our problems were we should be able to handle them, and we should be able to make things work. So, my dad was very, very independent. He used to get up every morning, put on his suit and a tie and go out of that front door and look for work. He must have looked for work for two years, and he looked five days a week. Every morning he got up, went out looking for work. Now, my mother had a job, and ultimately I—
Tyler
But now you said— Well, go ahead.
King
That was from about '35 to—it had to be fully a year and a half; he didn't really pick up a job until the
Tyler
So that's after Your Taxi and Murray's played out.
King
Yes.
Tyler
So he—
King
My mother was working—
Tyler
That's when he first had his unemployment problems. Up to that time, he did fairly okay.
King
Yeah, we didn't have it even that tough at that point, because my dad set up a mail-order business inside of the house, and we used to sell items by mail. Basically, he sold small items, some health items that were the same thing as vitamin pills are today. We would buy them, and then people would mail in for them. He'd put small ads in [newspapers]. Vitamins were not that big of a thing at that particular point, and were sort of what we'd now look at as multiple-vitamin tablets and those kinds of things, you know, where they're all over the drugstore and everyplace else; they were not at that time. I've forgotten the company that manufactured them, but it was something like [E. R.] Squibb [and Sons] or one of the major companies. And he actually set up a business right in the dining room, and we put these ads in the paper, and everyday when I would get off from school, it was up to me—they sold them in, I don't know, twenty-five tablets or a month's supply or two month's supply—I would take them,
Tyler
Did this work out okay? Did he make money?
King
We made enough only to sustain ourselves. He did not make any large amounts of money at all, but we made a few dollars a week, and, like I say, he spent every day out looking for work. Ultimately, he found a job. The job that he found was working for a wine distributor. I think it was called Gold Label, and they used to distribute wine, blackberry wine in particular, I remember, because there was always blackberry wine in the ice box, not always milk, but always—
Tyler
Was this in Chicago? A Chicago winery?
King
In Chicago. They were distributors. I'm not too sure where the wine came from; I think some of it came from the West Coast and some of it came from Pennsylvania and those places where they had wine, and, of course, he developed his route and he did quite well in relation to the maximum potential.
Now, what year or season did he start this?
King
We're into 1936 when he got that job. Some odd things were happening: he did have a part-time job, and that part-time job was on weekends. He would drive my great-aunt, whose name was Kitty Nelson, he would drive her over to Detroit, because in Detroit— This goes back, oh, I guess several years back. On weekends he would drive her to Detroit, because my great-uncle James Nelson was living five days a week in Detroit and then coming back on some weekends. He was involved in what's called a policy business over there, which was the numbers business. He was very, very much a nontypical type numbers operator: he was a little guy, didn't weigh over 135 pounds, maybe 5'7"; and he was in a business that was active in every black community in America, which was numbers and policy, so he wanted to be sure that his dollars were safe that he made. Each week they would go over and pick them up, pick up whatever money he had made—over to Detroit (it's about a three-hundred-mile drive) and then come back over to Chicago—and they would, you know, put the money in the vault.
Tyler
Whose vault was this?
King
This vault was kind of a family vault, where my uncle would put the money.
Tyler
Your father kept the vault?
I think the vault was actually in my dad's name. I'd have to ask him, but I think it was actually in his name.
Tyler
Okay, it wasn't in the home. It was in a bank or something?
King
They had two: they had one in their home, and they had one in a bank in a depository. The money— They didn't trust banks at that time, so the money was not in a bank. They didn't want to take the chance on banks folding and other kinds of things.
Tyler
So what's the difference with a depository?
King
Well, the depository was a situation where you had rent boxes; you could go in and rent a box.
Tyler
In a bank?
King
Yes, a safety deposit box.
Tyler
But if the bank collapsed, you got your box back.
King
You still have your box, that's right. You won't worry about how they handle the money and other things in there because you didn't deposit anything in the bank. Too many banks had gone broke, and too many other problems with banks. So my uncle saved a lot of his money, and they lived in a very nice section of town, which was on Michigan Boulevard. They had a nice, large house, and the one thing I really remember about it more than anything else was it had an elevator in the house.
Was that unusual?
King
Most unusual.
Tyler
It still is unusual.
King
Yeah, most, most unusual. Now, the elevator was really like, not the elevators of today, by any means, but it was one of the first elevators, I guess. Those houses that were along Michigan Boulevard would be very similar to some very elitist, old section of almost any of the larger communities, like here in Los Angeles, for instance, on Adams Boulevard from Figueroa [Street] going west, some of those old, very large, beautiful homes.
Now, my aunt was partially paralyzed but yet could do anything that anyone else could. She just had a problem, I believe it was, with her left arm, but other than that there was nothing that she wasn't able to do. Now, they were the very wealthy end of our family. Example, I think I can remember in 1935 my aunt went to Europe. Well, for blacks to go to Europe in 1935. [laughter] That was unusual.
Tyler
She was going there for what? Vacation?
King
Vacation. That was unusual. Ultimately, in 1936, Jimmy Nelson came to Los Angeles and had a fortuitous meeting in the lobby of the Dunbar Hotel, and at that time that hotel was the place, of course. It had gone into foreclosure; it had been built by [J. Alexander]
Tyler
But that wasn't from Somerville in '36, could it be?
King
No, he bought it from the mortgage company. Somerville had lost his interest in the property; it had been foreclosed away from him, to some extent.
Tyler
Because in his autobiography, he opened in 1928; they had the twenty-second annual NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] convention there and [W. E. B.] Du Bois came out. In '29, he [Somerville] was in a crisis, the next year. Well, he totally lost in a lawsuit, a lot of it, or what I don't know after that. He certainly said that he was having a problem in '29 and had to get rid of it. But, anyway.
King
Yes, he no longer had ownership of the hotel at that point, and it was difficult for most people. It just so happened that my uncle had made a considerable amount of money.
Tyler
Now, how did he pay for that? You said it was $87,000 for the hotel?
King
He paid for it cash.
Tyler
Really, in full? That was the money he had
King
Yes.
Tyler
—solely in that area?
King
Right. He sold everything that he had in Chicago after he had purchased the hotel, and he moved lock, stock, and barrel. He walked out of Detroit, he walked out of Chicago, and he came here.
Tyler
Any particular reason for that?
King
Yes, there was a reason. The business that he was in, the numbers business, was falling under attack, and he basically was a very mild-mannered person. His background was that he was one of those kids that was born in Brenham, Texas, ultimately moved to Houston, and ultimately got a job on the railroad. He was so small though until— [He] started out for a very short period of time being a Pullman porter, but he couldn't pick up the bags; the bags were too heavy for him. So he had a nice personality, and [was] a clean-cut young man, so they moved him into the dining car.
Tyler
What route was he? What areas did he mainly—
King
I think it was on the SP [Southern Pacific Company], if I'm not mistaken, but I really—
Tyler
What cities and states—
King
Maybe it was Union Pacific [Railroad]. I think it was Union Pacific, because I think he did run to the coast out here.
From Chicago or where? Texas?
King
Yeah, from Chicago.
Tyler
Did he start with the railroads in Texas?
King
I think he started with the railroad when he got to Chicago, and he had a hard time then even carrying the trays of plates, so they used to give him the station closest to the kitchen so he wouldn't have as far to walk with them.
Tape Number: III, Side One
April 13, 1985
Tyler
Okay, Mr. Celes King, we [are] back on the scene again.
King
Hey, listen, it's a pleasure to have you back too. That interlude was one for the books. [King ran for city treasurer in the April 1985 Los Angeles City election—Ed.]
Tyler
Well, that happens, that happens, but we shall persevere.
King
It was a favorable interlude. I don't want to give the impression— I was just hitting five to eight meetings a day, generally speaking at about half of those. And I would say that I got more pluses out of it than minuses. And we still drew forty thousand votes. You can't knock that.
Tyler
Well, I should have been there with the tape recorder.
King
Well, you would have heard the political rhetoric at its height.
Tyler
Well, we had left off with Chicago, and we had covered your youth there, the experiences you've had in school. Were there any significant peer group experiences that seemed to have been very important in Chicago?
King
I think probably the things that influenced me most, of course, were my family. I had a cousin by the name of
Tyler
In what sort of way, as sort of an example or [in] concrete terms, was she a good model? What did she do? Like clean language, church, or ambitious? What?
King
There was not church as a major factor, but she was almost impeccable in terms of her conduct. She handled herself very well under all circumstances. She never got involved in anything that had any rowdyism to it. She had a close set of friends that were always— If you had to look at a difficult black community, if there was a level called elitism, and elite not in that it was the kind of thing that you would say it was snobbish, along that line, but just the people who lived a good, superclean type of life; she was representative of all those kinds of things. I never remember her having any difficulties whatsoever. Always stayed out of anything that had any possibility of trouble written on it. The young group that I grew up with in Woodlawn was basically a good group of people too. Their families stayed right up with them; they kept up with them. They saw to it that they did little
Tyler
Woodlawn Organization is one of the reform black groups there now, I think from the sixties or so, along the Saul Alinsky lines. It's still pretty organized, built a reputation for reforming the community.
King
I am, of course, reaching back to 1935, '36, '37. I think it was in 1937 when I finished grammar school, and one of the very delightful things that occurred to me is that some few years later, when I finished down at
Tyler
McCosh [Grammar School]?
King
McCosh. When I finished grade school, I went to Tilden Tech[nical] High School. In Chicago, eight grades were in the grammar school and four grades in the high school. So when I got to the ninth grade, I decided to go to a technical school, Tilden Tech. I felt that if I got to this technical school that I would learn things that would put me in a position to be able to make a living. I would learn something about plumbing, electrical things, automobile repair—things that were clearly forseeable as a way to make a living. We did not have the entire array of limitless possibilities that were out there.
So I went to Tilden, and while there I struck up some friendships with some of the white group, and I remember so well how easy it was for us to get along, even though there were black-white-type fights. The fellow and I became very close friends that was in several of my classes, and a number of the other people who were white, we got along with very well. The guy was, he was Polish, and, of
Tyler
Just white.
King
Yeah, they all pretty well looked alike, and, of course, I had none of the biases within myself; they were not hardened. I knew of nothing else, having grown up in a very restricted society, a black society. It was not a big thing. I mean, we got along quite well; it didn't require any second thoughts on my part or on the Polish fellow's part. It has been so long now, until I have forgotten the names, but we got along quite well. We did not have a lot of socializing, except at school.
Tyler
Did you commute back and forth to this school? It wasn't a live-in situation or a dormitory situation?
King
No, it was a long trip. It was at 4747 Union [Street], and, of course, I lived in South Chicago.
Tyler
Was this a public school?
King
It was a public school.
Tyler
But you had to get special permission to go there?
King
No, because it was a technical school. They had Lane Tech in Chicago, which was the school that my father had attended. And this was Tilden Tech. Now, I've always had a great admiration for my father [Celestus A. King, Jr.], and certainly still do today. And the fact that he had gone to a technical school was another reason why I
Tyler
Had Lane been integrated?
King
Lane had been an integrated school in Chicago that my dad had attended, so it meant that Lane went way back in terms of integration. And the same thing as far as Tilden Tech was concerned. You basically had the neighborhood patterns, and it meant that a lot of black students, of course, went to black schools, because the neighborhood pattern caused that kind of a flow.
Tyler
But if you got out and went to one of the technical schools, then that cut across neighborhood patterns.
King
It did; it threw you in into a clearly integrated school. The other high school that was sort of in the area was Inglewood High School, and Inglewood High School did have black and white students attending. But I was very pleased with the results of learning some basic skills that have stood with me all these years: the basic understanding of electricity, and how to make minor repairs. I learned those things as a kid. Taking
Tyler
Did you make that decision yourself? Or was that a family decision? One family member directed you to Tilden? How was that decision made?
King
I made the decision and kind of submitted it to my dad, just for them sort of to validate—to my mother and father. My mother [Leontyne Butler King] was just interested that I would get reasonable grades. I don't think she ever cared what school I went to as long as I got reasonable grades and I attended the classes. But I think my dad was more conscious of the fact that if I went there that I would learn something, that there would be a possibility of being able to pick up a job. After all, you got to remember, those were the days when you had lawyers and doctors that were working in the post office simply because they had to be able to sustain themselves and their families. And jobs were very, very hard to come by. We all in our community knew, though, that if you had basic kind of skills, that you could always be an entrepreneur. As long as you knew how to do something and the need was
Tyler
So then, they weren't heavy-handed in directing you in that regard?
King
No. I never did have that really as a problem. I think that—
Tyler
Was there any particular reason, like was it give you a choice to sort of make your own decision, or was it— Was there any particular pattern you can perceive why that was done? Was that a conscious decision, or was it— Well, like we said with your mother, she just didn't have the focus that intensely.
King
I think it was just basically that they wanted to put me in a position so that I could make a living, and they knew that education was important, and that if I was going to be able to make a living, I needed to stay in school.
Tyler
Did they have any well-established social vision for you that you could perceive, or even understood at this age, or even earlier?
King
Well, they wanted me to be a success, and they really made it clear that if you're a financial success, it's very easy to bridge the other gaps, and that if you aren't able to take care and sustain yourself, you're going to have problems everyplace. And I think they made that
Tyler
Perfectly clear, right. One of the things I decided, "Hey, I'm going to Kentucky." If I can live middle class anywhere— If you're poor no matter where you are, you're in bad shape.
King
I agree with you on that. You know, Chicago was the only place that I had ever known, so we had to fit, I had to fit things within that kind of a context. Tell you one thing, the community that I grew up in was very political: the ward captains worked the community.
Tyler
Were they black ward captains?
King
Black ward captains, but there was sort of a superintendent who was around who generally was white, who would come around—
Tyler
Do you remember his name?
King
No, no, when I was a kid, he'd come around on election day, and he always took care of everyone. When we were kids, he gave us candy and ice cream on election day.
Tyler
Did he make it clear who he was and what his political affiliation was, and to tell your parents, or what?
King
Yes, yes, it was definite; they let it be known. And I kind of remember that clearly. I guess it could have been as far back as 1933 when there was quite a change; starting a few years before that, I guess, a number of
Tyler
The Republicans?
King
Yeah. That's going back to 1936. I was trying to pull together a clear recollection of some of those little election-type activities, but I can recall that they would give us little items and tell us, "Here, go put these on the automobiles and go throw these at the doors." And I got involved in politics because it was fun and games, and they did have the ice cream and the cake and the suckers and the balloons. God, here we were, really youngsters around then, and we were participating. And that was my kind of first understanding of politics. I got that at an early age.
Tyler
So these politicians in some ways went over the parents' heads and rounded up the kids on the streets.
You might say that they did in one way, but we all pretty well volunteered. I mean, we used to flop down there.
Tyler
Well, who wouldn't with that kind of— In other words, did they go through the black churches?
King
No, this was done on a neighborhood basis. They had the ward, you know, the ward captains, and they knew all the kids anyway. They knew every kid; they could identify everyone. A ward captain back in those days in Chicago, his job was dependent upon his being able to deliver the vote. So, yes, they started working with us quite early. It always seemed to come up around election time; it was not a continuing kind of thing, week in, week out, but come election time, hey, they were out there, and they were doing their number. At that point, that was when I began to take notice of what was happening out there.
Tyler
Well, you couldn't help to with that kind of attraction. Now, did they keep the black vote in Chicago in '36, or did blacks shift over to Roosevelt there, as you recollect? I mean, because, you know, blacks, that was the shift. Blacks shifted in '36.
King
Yeah, that was the big shift. It was only after that that it became noticeable that a shift had occurred, to me.
Tyler
What about your parents? Did they make the shift
King
No, they didn't ever shift. They stayed Republicans.
Tyler
Why? That seems fascinating to me.
King
They stayed Republicans; they did not shift.
Tyler
Did they ever shift later?
King
Never.
Tyler
Why?
King
I think that to some extent that it was just a high level of independence that they had. They did not want to be involved with trends. They believed basically that you should be able to take care of yourself, that you should be able to get a job, and, of course, my dad had some very difficult years at that point. He was unable to secure employment for several years, but he was out every morning with a suit on looking for a job.
Tyler
What did he live on? His savings? Or work he got here and there?
King
You know, I really just don't know, but we didn't live that well, I'll tell you that. My mother had an excellent job. She worked at a dress shop, and it meant that she could get very nice clothing for herself, and she did have a pretty good take-home, or take-away, income; it was a good job. I think she used to make maybe a low of twenty-five when she started, and probably ended up with
Tyler
This is in the Depression years?
King
Yes, yeah. She ultimately worked her way to manager of the store, and that meant that—
Tyler
Was that Nelson's store?
King
No, that was a store called Jacob's, and it was on Forty-seventh Street.
Tyler
Was that a major, big department store?
King
No, it wasn't a major department store. It was a womenswear store, and she ended up becoming the buyer, and I think that's how she ended up with the additional ten dollars a week. She has a real good knack for those kind of things, and she did it quite well. My mother ultimately became an outstanding dresser, and for at least—after we moved to Los Angeles—for at least fifteen years, she was always in the best dressed women's group in Los Angeles. Of course, this basically was the black community, but she was well dressed. She knew and understood how to buy, and once you have learned that part of the game, you can generally, you know, make it through. For years on end, she was always sort of the best dressed woman in black Los Angeles.
Tyler
Now, so then your family, basically, was not very receptive to the New Deal programs, you know, the make-work, WPA [Works Progress Administration], CWA [Civil Works
King
Yeah, my dad never took one of those jobs.
Tyler
He could have.
King
I would say, probably, yes, he could have taken one of those jobs, but he did not take one.
Tyler
Was that typical of Woodlawn area in the Depression? How did the Depression affect Woodlawn and most other black families there?
King
Woodlawn came out fairly well, but you did see the relief truck driving down the street out there, and they were making several stops in each block.
Tyler
Giving food?
King
Yeah, food. They would deliver food packages; they would deliver rice and canned goods, and deliver it directly to the residents.
Tyler
Was that regarded with a sense of shame, welfare to the families there?
King
No, I don't think so. I think that no one particularly wanted to receive it. But I think everybody quickly understood that if you were going to survive, you couldn't do it without eating, and you couldn't send those kids out to school without food. As I mentioned, my dad absolutely refused to accept relief, and it meant that, you know, we frequently had very, very little to eat. In fact, I can remember our basic diet was beans and rice; rice was
Tyler
That was the good times.
King
That's right, and you could buy neckbones back in those days for four pounds for a dime, but you didn't have the dime.
Tyler
That famous slogan, "Brother, can you spare a dime?"
King
It was a slogan well worth using, because for a dime, you could get quite a bit. I remember I used to be able to buy for a nickel large hot dogs, and they were well worth it, too. I mean, the Dodger Dog that they charge whatever for now, a nickel would do it back in those days.
Tyler
What events led up to the decision to leave Chicago and go to L.A.?
King
Well, I had made a trip with my grandmother to Los Angeles in the early thirties.
Tyler
Her name?
King
Sadie Nelson King.
Tyler
Oh, Sadie King, okay.
King
And she brought my cousin and I out here, because she was fond of California, and Los Angeles in particular, and wanted to come back here. She had come to Los Angeles
Tyler
In the thirties?
King
Yeah, the Dunbar was here in the thirties.
Tyler
No, no, I meant there was no place to stay. L.A. was overcrowded?
King
Basically, blacks travelled by going and staying with friends. That was the method that blacks basically used in the early thirties. If you were going to a town, you communicated with your friend, and you stayed at your friend's house, friend or relative. So when I came out here as a little kid, I can remember seeing the palm trees and the other kinds of things, and I liked it too. My mother and father had not been out here, but when I went back, I told them about how beautiful it was out here, and so I think that I helped plant the seed. But the real turning point was my uncle, who—well, he was my granduncle, Jimmy [James] Nelson—when he bought the major
Tyler
What year?
King
He bought it in the latter part of 1936, and then my dad came out in '37 to manage the hotel for him, and then my mother and I came out in '38.
Tyler
So then the hotel was one of the big attractions to come, because it was going to be this family business, or what?
King
It was it. We came out here because of that building; the final deciding factor to come was because of the building. When we moved here, we bought a building; the building had five units, and it was about a quarter of a block from Central Avenue on Forty-second Place, diagonally across the street from the Dunbar Hotel, so it worked out just fine.
Tyler
So that's where you all moved, into that apartment you bought? Now, who bought that, your father, or Nelson, Jimmy?
King
My grandmother and my dad pooled together whatever was necessary for the down payment. The place itself was self-sustaining, because there were five units on one lot, so it was self-sustaining. And then they had me around there to keep it as clean as a pin, and I did keep it clean as a pin. I hosed down the driveway and watered the grass;
Tyler
Now, the apartment building in the Dunbar, well, obviously was, and the area, was considered very middle-class then, or what? What would be the sort of label you would put on it?
King
The area itself was a good area. It was one of the better areas as far as Los Angeles was concerned in 1937, '38. It was really, I guess, the premier area. Blacks had come to Los Angeles and, years ago, had initially settled down in the Fifth Street area, and then ultimately Sixth, and then Eighth, and then Twelfth Street was the number one place for many, many years. And when I arrived here—
Tyler
Twelfth and Central [Avenue]?
King
Twelfth and Central.
Tyler
That's where they stopped the Zoot-Suit riots in '43. Anyway.
King
Twelfth and Central was sort of the place, and then as time went by, it moved out to Washington [Boulevard], and Washington and Central Avenue, and then Forty-second Place was way out south.
Tyler
In the late thirties?
King
Yes. It was—
Tyler
So that didn't become a real focus till when, the forties? Forty-second and Central Avenue. The Dunbar was built in '28.
Okay, the area was the key area, and that's where the action was, right? But, in spite of the fact that that's where the action was, it was still regarded as quite far out. See, you're going to a time when there were no blacks who attended Fremont High School. I mean none. There were a few blacks that lived on Thirty-seventh Street, Thirty-sixth Place, Thirty-fifth in between Western [Avenue] and Vermont [Avenue]. My uncle bought two apartment buildings when he came here, in addition to the hotel, and they were on Thirty-sixth Place, west of Western Avenue. I was able to use that address in order to go into Manual Arts High School. Manual Arts High School had about thirty-one hundred students, of which thirty-three were black, when I entered that school. But the neighborhood pattern was still the prevailing thing. If you can visualize the situation, at that point as I remember it, Jefferson High School was the black high school; probably 90 percent of the students there were minority students, some of whom were Hispanic, because when you went east of Jefferson High School going toward Alameda [Street], Long Beach Boulevard and over there, most of the people that lived west of Long Beach Boulevard were Hispanics. At that time, all the major black athletes came out of Jefferson High, and there were just a few others that were scattered around all of Los Angeles. Later, good athletes showed up
Tyler
Was this one of the tactics of the aspiring blacks?
King
Well, I think a lot of blacks wanted to move on what we call the Westside. Actually, if you look at a map of Los Angeles, it is not the Westside, but it became the west side of South Los Angeles.
Tyler
Yeah.
King
So we always called it the Westside.
Tyler
Of course, that Westside concept is still with us, because that's where the higher status community is constantly moving, right? Not eastward, for most blacks.
King
That's right. In fact, the plight is quite confusing out there now as to where blacks are going. But as we go back, there had always been a major desire then for the blacks to move to the Westside, the Westside being—the homes were a little bit newer, and the area was a little more desirable. I don't remember too much about the crime rate, but it was always my perception that there
Tyler
I'm going to ask you something about that crime question, but kind of go back a little bit. Why was there this focus on investing in L.A.? Why not Detroit where Jimmy Nelson was? Why not Chicago? How did that happen that L.A. became the best choice or the choice to invest in? Were you aware of—
King
The reason I think, was, first of all, there was a job out here that had to be done. My uncle had this hotel on his hands, and he needed someone to assist him that he could trust.
Tyler
But I mean, why didn't he buy a hotel or major property in Detroit or Chicago? Do you see what I'm saying, sort of the decision even prior to, I mean, just even focusing upon that major investment?
King
Okay. My uncle was a very small guy (he was really my granduncle), very small guy. He had worked on the railroad, and he was so small until he could not carry the grips that people were [carrying] there. He just couldn't handle them. I think I may have mentioned this to you at one time. He was always very personable and always very businesslike. So what they did was they transferred him in effect from the Pullman car to the dining car, and then they always gave him the tables to work that were closest
Tyler
Okay, this will be over shortly, this one side.
King
Okay, I think it's warm in here.
He decided that when he was going to get out of it, that he was going to get completely out. And it was his desire just to completely separate himself from all of his past and come to a new area and live. Now, his brother had gone to Tucson, Arizona, and that was Harry Nelson, who is still alive today.
Tyler
With the same sort of perspective, to get away? Was he part of the numbers?
King
No, he was not, but he was part of our trend going West. He came out because of the climate. He wanted to be, and maybe for some minor health implications, he wanted to be in the West where it was much warmer, and that's the reason why he chose Tucson to live. Tucson, of course, was certainly in a dry place, and it was a nice place to live. I had made it to Tucson, because since my uncle there, Uncle Harry, worked for the railroad, we were very railroad conscious. So we had made that trip too, when I
Tyler
Did Sadie play a role in giving him a focus of where he might go, because of her and your enthusiasm about L.A.?
King
Yes, she had something to do with it, because she was the matriarch of the family. Whenever she spoke, well, everyone knew that they were to listen. We just had a great family respect, and she thought highly of California and took the position that the family should consider coming to California. That, along with the rather unexpected opportunity to be able to put the economic-development sort of plan into play, was what he wanted to do. It was a rather fortuitous kind of a situation that occurred, because he just simply happened to be sitting in the lobby when one of the persons who was acting as an agent for the mortgage holder came in, and one thing led to another.
Tyler
For the Dunbar?
King
For the Dunbar.
Tyler
I was going to get to that. How did that connection take place?
King
He was here visiting.
Tyler
Right. That's what I'm saying.
Sitting in the lobby. The gentleman who had originally put the hotel together, because of adverse circumstances all across this country—
Tyler
That's [J.] Alexander Somerville.
King
Somerville. He was unable to keep the property. He was quite a visionary in terms of what he wanted to do, and he had lost control of the property.
Tyler
I think he had to sell it in '29, or '30, I mean. He lost it right after the Depression, right away. Who was holding it then when Jimmy bought it? Was it still in black hands? You said a Chinese had bought it, or what?
King
No, it was not in black hands. The mortgage company was handling it.
Tyler
Do you recall what mortgage company?
King
Don't have the slightest idea.
Tyler
And so did Jimmy pay cash for it?
King
Yeah, $87,500 in 1936.
Tyler
So he had amassed quite a bit of a fortune there.
King
All of my family are workaholics. You have no choice if you grow up in this family. We train: I was trained that way, my dad was trained that way, and everyone in the family has always been trained to work.
Tyler
Did he buy the other properties outright?
King
I don't really recall the story on the other properties that he bought. Basically, it was two pieces of
Tyler
Now, do you recall what would probably be his total sum of money that he brought with him, cash?
King
I never did know.
Tape Number: III, Side Two
April 13, 1985
Tyler
Now, what were you saying? Go ahead, take off where you said when you hit town.
King
When we came to Los Angeles, my family had almost total social acceptance. We came with my uncle being prestigious in terms of the economic approach. My uncle was certainly not a recluse, but he was not an over-projecting-type person. So when he came into Los Angeles, there was a little bit of mystique that stayed around him, in fact, for years. And it meant that people wanted to be around him, and since he had gotten here and had the largest property here in L.A. in the black community, it meant that people were desirous of meeting him. And he didn't go to that many social activities, because the center point of almost all black Los Angeles was the hotel. [For] every major black in America during those years that came to Los Angeles, and they pretty well all did, that was the place that you had to go.
Tyler
What were the years that he held that, from what years?
King
Nineteen thirty-six when he purchased it, until his death, which was 1953. However, the most significant years started about the time that he purchased the hotel, through about 1946, maybe '48. And then, of course, there was the
Tyler
They all moved to get next to the hotel?
King
Right.
Tyler
Like Club Alabam, the Downbeat, the Last Word.
King
And the Memo. They were all within a block of—
Tyler
Tina's Chile Parlor, Jack's Chicken in a Basket.
King
Everything was reasonably close to the hotel, because this is where people came from out of town. You got to remember now, back in those days, you could not go to the Biltmore [Hotel]; there was only one place in downtown Los Angeles where you could eat in terms of a restaurant, and that was Clifton's Restaurant. You could not go to, say, South Gate. And South Gate meant a different thing at that time than it does today. We all knew, for instance, when you said South Gate, that was the area where the south gate was, going into the Cudahy ranch that had been established by the Cudahy people, who were heavily involved in the meat business at the stockyards in Chicago. So there were certain identifying points that we bumped into out here that we can link back to where we came from. Cudahy was a big operation, the stockyards, none of
So we got here, we had the church acceptance, because we had initially come out, at least my mother and I had initially come out with the church group. My dad was involved with the people who were financially affluent, and, basically, we just walked into a social set right at its top level, so we had no social adjustment to make. My mother always dressed very attractively. She was a person who was gregarious and was involved with clubs and other kinds of activities; she joined the right clubs reasonably quickly. It was smooth as silk as far as moving into a new area. I had no problem in terms of adjusting. The young men that were in the area were the finest of the blacks that you could find in L.A. Maybe others might dispute some parts of that, but a couple of our neighbors down the street were the Houston boys [Norman B. and Ivan J.], within a block.
Tyler
Founded Golden State Mutual Life [Insurance Company].
King
Right. Not too far away were the Nickersons; the Nickerson father [William, Jr.] was the actual founder, and the cofounders were like the Houstons. [Norman O. Houston, the father of Norman B. and Ivan, was cofounder of Golden
Tyler
I lived in Nickerson Gardens. [laughter] After William Nickerson [Jr.].
King
Yeah, well, William Nickerson [Jr.] would crawl out of his grave if he ever knew that Nickerson Gardens would have gotten to the point where it is now. But the focal point of the Golden State Mutual Life Insurance Company was within a block of the hotel.
Tyler
That's when it was on Central.
King
They were on Central Avenue. They still own that property and use it as one of their outreach offices now. So that was the place to be. All of the major bands—and at that time black bands could not stop at anyplace except basically the black hotels—the Count Basie band, the Duke Ellington band, Erskine Hawkins, Jimmie Lunceford, and—
Tyler
They came to the Dunbar?
King
They all stayed there.
Tyler
Now, that's where they stayed, and they would play at the—
King
They would play basically in white establishments. Many of the places where they played, blacks could not even go there. They used to play in places in Culver City; and on Vermont near Third Street, there was a large place that was there. They also on occasion would do some one-nighters at the Elks [Club] Hall, which was one of the
Tyler
That was black owned?
King
Black owned completely, and it is still black owned. The Muslims bought it from the Elks at a later date, but it still was black owned until it was torn down recently. So you had these social activities that were all around the hub. Now, you had the white entertainers that used to come over, the Bing Crosbys, and that whole set along that particular time. This was the place that they came.
Tyler
Could you name some of the whites that would come down and patronize the hotel?
King
[James] Cagney, George Raft, Clark Gable. You just go through that whole list—the Barrymores—they were over there. It was the place to go, it was the area to be in. It was in effect like the West Coast Harlem. It was not nearly as integrated as, say, San Francisco was at that time, where there were bars you could go to in San Francisco. Basically, in Los Angeles, that was the strip, that was the black strip.
My interest in aviation was fueled even further, and the person who taught me to fly was Jimmie Lunceford.
Tyler
He had his own plane?
King
Jimmie Lunceford had his own plane; he was one of
Tyler
Why was that?
King
He was a very gutty type guy. He did not want to be owned; he did not want his band to be owned. He wanted to do it as an entrepreneur, and if he made it, he made it, he was going to make the money; and if he wasn't, well, fine, he wasn't going to do it and run it on a salary or a percentage. Most of the other bands were controlled by booking agents. He dealt with a few booking agents on the one-nighters kind of thing. But that was one reason why the flying was very important to him, because when after— They used to call them gigs: we had a gig here and a gig there, meaning those were one-night stands and those kinds of things. They would travel in buses, occasionally on trains, but mostly on buses because they'd make these long runs. Well, everybody wanted to get to the West Coast in the winter, because it was warm out here and freezing in the East.
Tyler
And travel was more difficult than pleasant.
King
Right, so this was the place that everybody wanted to get to. Every winter you'd see the big bands, the big black bands showing up. It was hard to get reservations at
Tyler
Stayed packed!
King
They stayed sold out.
Tyler
So, it was a financial success, overwhelming.
King
It was a financial success. Jimmy Nelson was a good businessman, and he ran it hands on. All of the major entertainers, Lena Horne, Billie Holiday—I'm trying to think of some of the female vocalists.
Tyler
Ivie Anderson.
King
Who's that?
Tyler
Ivie Anderson.
King
Ivie stayed there, and Ivie opened up a chicken shack only a few blocks from there on Vernon. It was called Ivie's Chicken Shack; it was there for twenty years.
Tyler
When did she open it?
King
In the forties, in the early forties she opened up the Chicken Shack.
Tyler
Now, Jimmy [Nelson] and your father managed the place?
King
My dad stayed there from '37 when he came to town until about 1940, and then he went into business himself. He opened up a liquor store, and then shortly thereafter he ended up with two liquor stores. And then, of course, when the war came along, you didn't need two liquor stores, because you couldn't get enough beer to sell, you couldn't
Tyler
Now, this patronizing of the Dunbar by black and white celebrities, how did that impact upon Jimmy and your father and you personally, and on other family members? Was there any sort of payoff or rewards? Of course, the focus of the status groups coming in. How did that impact?
King
It had a very significant impact, because you got to remember there was not a lot of movement of blacks back and forth across the country at that time. And we found ourselves in a position knowing the major people throughout this country. Even the major professors, and it's kind of difficult to pull off some of these names, but people who would come out to deliver a paper, they would stop at the hotel, and you would become aware that so-and-so from some group has come out. The principal people that were involved in NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] and those activities, the principal ministers from the various ministerial alliances, would come out. So it really put us in a position where we knew the sort of shakers and movers of black America.
Tyler
Do you remember any particular context from that that was acted upon, or some benefit or reward that came from it?
Oh, I guess I can think of many of them, but one of them that was very significant was Lena Horne, for instance. Lena was a youngster at that time, and she was on the rise, and Lena and I met each other, knew each other well (she knew my whole family well), and later on when I was down at Tuskegee, she came through to do what I guess we could call a USO-type show, and when she arrived there, the first thing that she did was to ask for me, and the colonel who was running Tuskegee, even though I was just one of several hundred cadets that were running around—
Tyler
Was that Benjamin O. [Davis, Jr.]?
King
No. B.O. was not in the training portion of it. He was one of the cadets that first went through, and then he became the commanding officer of the 99th [Fighter Squadron], and then later the 332nd [Fighter Group]. But anyway— I'm having some difficulty remembering the colonel's name, I think it was Shelby, no, no, it was Parrish. Colonel [Noel F.] Parrish was running Tuskegee at that point, and it was a big thing then—Lena Horne was coming down to Tuskegee—the morale and the motivation and all those things. As soon as she arrived on the base, she asked for me, and he says, "Yes, I'll get him for you." Well, it just so happened that day I was up flying— And I don't know if we're changing tracks too much?
Tyler
No, no.
We're going now into the service situation, one of the impacts, but anyway I was flying. I was in basic training at that point; I was flying solo. There was a fellow by the name of Allen Robinson, who had lived here in Los Angeles; his mother was a doctor, and Allen was the chief tower officer. So the word got out, "Find Celes King immediately. Colonel Parrish is looking for him." Well, Colonel Parrish didn't know me from all those cadets; I guess we're kind of modular. But all of a sudden it was important. [It turned out] he'd found out that I was up flying. He came down to what's called the apron, came down to the flight line and told Allen Robinson to call me in. Allen got me on the radio in the plane, and he said, "The colonel is down here, and he wants you to come in immediately." Of course, you know, I said, "What in the world? Is my flying career over?"
Tyler
You were worried to death.
King
I said, "For goodness sakes, what in the world could I have done?" I thought it out and I said, "I haven't done anything," so I guess all this flashed through my mind in not more than ten seconds, and then I said, "Allen, what's happening?" The weather was fine, we had been called in from time to time on those situations. He said, "Lena Horne is here, and Colonel Parrish wants you to come in immediately." I whipped my airplane around and started
You're the hotshot, huh? [laughter] Lena Horne called you.
King
Then I pulled in, and instead of parking where they had me designated to park, I saw all those people, so I went all the way down to the last plane, and I pulled in there and parked. And then I sat in it, and I was revving up the engines and just sat there and finally I roared, turned off the ignition, fine, and the colonel, who had never spoken to me, not one utterance all the time that I'd been down at Tuskegee, acted like he knew me very well, this, that and the other, and oh, my god. Anyway, Lena Horne came up, she got inside of my airplane, and I stood on the side, and we took pictures. That picture has become a classic picture in the annals of black aviation. She's sitting inside, and I'm on the outside.
Tyler
That's in all the books of the war period, huh?
King
Not only that, it was run in every black publication across the country, they blew up large ones and put them into black USOs [United Service Organizations] all across this country. It had a tremendous impact, and all of a sudden Celes King became a very important cadet, and this one incident was a major trigger towards that particular point. I had gotten down to Tuskegee and attended the Tuskegee Institute, where Dr. [Frederick] Patterson at that time was the president of Tuskegee Institute, and he later
Tyler
In 1905.
King
They're claiming 1900.
Tyler
Oh, yeah, in 1900. It's being reorganized; you went to a meeting last week.
King
But that had a major impact on my air force career. That night there was an activity at the officers club, and I was the only cadet that they let into the officers club. In fact, I don't know that any cadet had ever been in the officers club. And they let me in because Lena Horne wanted me to be with her party, and I joined the entourage, and all of a sudden, hey, I was sitting somewhere near cloud eight, on the way to cloud nine. That was one of the situations that occurred.
Tyler
So that gave you marked and preferential treatment thereafter, to a certain degree? You certainly had a higher status, and you stood out above the crowd or whatever.
King
Oh, yes, clearly, and then all the other things that I had been doing right, all of a sudden, they began to be noticed. We were down there, and you got to remember, you know, most blacks certainly didn't come from the most affluent areas. They themselves were the best educated blacks probably as a large group in America, they had
Tyler
Oh, you were one of the ones.
King
I had arranged to get my car down there, and I had a red Plymouth convertible that you could see for miles away.
Tyler
What year was it?
King
It was a 1941, and my dad had done well in business, so that, plus me making part of the payments, he had given me an opportunity on the first car; and then one, we bounced along until I ended up with this convertible red Plymouth. So, all of a sudden, all of these things really came into focus. A yearbook was put together down at Tuskegee, and I was a major focal point in connection with the book. The photographer was a fellow by the name of Snead from Detroit, Michigan. All of a sudden, he was taking pictures of me down on the line; go down there and there'd be fifty cadets as pilots down on the line, and he would single me out to take pictures, and send them out to all of the news media across the country. So that one situation was significant. The other was one that the guy who taught me to fly, Jimmie Lunceford sent a letter down to the post commander, because what he wanted to know was whether or not he would be able to fly in to Tuskegee because he wanted to come down and, you know, see Celes
Tyler
What year, this is '41?
King
Now, we're in '44 by now. There were very few people who had planes you got to remember. Jimmie Lunceford—
Tyler
Even today, in terms of blacks having their own planes. [laughter]
King
That is correct. You're absolutely correct. [laughter]
Tyler
Even today. I think James Brown had one for a while, didn't he?
King
Quite a few people have leased the planes for business operations, but in those days it wasn't a matter of leasing, it was a matter of ownership. You were the pilot. You didn't have the kind of dollars that you could pay someone to fly as a pilot, you had to do it yourself.
Tyler
Now, how did Jimmie Lunceford come about to teach you to fly, pick up on you? Did he teach a lot of other people? How did that occur? How did that get started?
King
I don't think he taught anyone except me. It started because one day— Every day, of course, he would go practice, and—
Tyler
Did he spend a lot of time in L.A.?
King
Yes, he was out here all the time. Frequently, he'd come out to L.A., and he liked to stay out as long as he
Tyler
They had an airport on Central Avenue?
King
It was the Central Avenue Airport.
Tyler
I've never heard anyone say that. Really?
King
Very few people know that.
Tyler
Where? Central Avenue and where, what street?
King
Maybe 140th [Street]
Tyler
Oh, okay. Is that the Compton?
King
No, the Compton Airport was a different airport. Central Avenue Airport, that's where we used to fly out of.
Tyler
I mean, the Compton Airport is at Alondra [Boulevard] and Central and Wilmington [Avenue]; is it between that little strip there?
King
Different airport. This airport was on Central Avenue. Maybe 130th [Street] or something like that. And what happened was he used to want somebody to fly with him, and I was just a kid around there—
Tyler
What are you, about fifteen, sixteen now?
King
Oh, about fifteen. Yeah, maybe fifteen going towards sixteen. And he asked me one day, "Say, kid, would you like to go up with me?" He couldn't find anybody to fly with him. And I said, "And how!" It was a two-seater, and I think it was probably— It was not a Piper Cloud, it wasn't a Taylor. I can't really remember that first one,
Tyler
So he was a good pilot himself?
King
Oh, he was a great pilot.
Tyler
How had he learned?
King
He had learned because he had an interest in it and because he felt that it was necessary for him to do it for
Tyler
So you were actually a fairly accomplished pilot before you went to Tuskegee.
King
Right.
Tyler
Were you the only one with that kind of experience, that you can recall?
King
There were a few people who had been instructors in a few of the programs. They had a few programs too, not that many, but they had a few programs that were federally funded programs.
Tyler
From the New Deal.
King
Yeah. Mostly around Chicago, and maybe a few in New York, but mostly around Chicago. We had Blackburn, who was a pilot and the guy who ended up going over to Ethiopia—
Tyler
Oh, yeah, the black guy from Harlem who tried to cross the Harlem River and all that, the Flying Eagle. Did you ever meet him?
King
As a kid I saw him.
Tyler
Where, Chicago?
King
Chicago.
Tyler
So that was another influence? What's his name?
King
Well, no, by that time—I'm having difficulty remembering it, but it'll come back to me—that was a long trip for me, because when I'd get on my twenty-six-inch
Tyler
Did you ever try to get three dollars together to go up?
King
Three dollars was unreachable; it was absolutely unreachable. There was no way for me to get ahold of three dollars. No way, shape, form, fashion. They had people working for a dollar a day, carrying ice all day long. I remember our ice man was a kid a few years older— I remember one day when he said, "I'm not going to work for a dollar a day anymore." So three dollars was almost impossible to get ahold of. But, yes, I was an accomplished pilot, thanks to Jimmie Lunceford. Now, what I did when I went into the air force, I had been forewarned to say that I knew nothing about flying.
Tyler
Why?
King
Because the air force wants to teach you their way, and if you tell them that you know something about flying, you are pretty well dead, you can wrap up. They wanted to teach you from scratch their particular way of flying. At
Tyler
Yeah, separate branches.
King
In addition to that, I went over to night school at USC [University of Southern California]. I took aerodynamics. I took navigation.
Tyler
Now, this is before the Tuskegee connection.
King
Before I went to Tuskegee.
Tyler
This is the late thirties?
King
We're in now the latter part of '42, the first part of '43. I went over to— Just like there's the UCLA extension, USC had a USC extension. The price was heavy back in those days. I think sixteen dollars a unit in those days, and that was a hard amount of money to get ahold of. But they did have these night courses, and I took all the night courses. When I went into the air force, and they asked me, I told them I had no prior experience whatsoever, knew nothing about flying, except that I had the desire to learn their system, and that was what they wanted. There were a few people who went in and said they had prior flying experience, and they never saw graduation.
Tyler
Really?
King
Only people that they let get away with it were the people who had been prior instructors.
So that was just a matter of policy.
King
Well, they felt that they had to really teach you how—first of all, everything that you had learned—how to get into some new modes, but if you only learned the air force way, you don't know any other way. And that's what the air force was interested in. They wanted to take the person and teach you their approach to it, and it was a hard-line approach. They were not playing games up there; it was serious. Most of the people who had prior experience— But by being forewarned, it put me in a position to say that I did not know anything. That's one reason why I went through that entire flying school operation and never had as much as one day of trouble, never flunked one flying examination all the way through. And even when I was— It's divided into several sections as far as the flying part. We had the primary, which was the basic situation; well, it's the basic part of flying. Then you have a section that's called basic training, and then you have advanced training. When I got to advanced training, I was really way out in front. I was the first person to solo in advanced training, but this was because I started out way in front of everyone, so it was very helpful.
When you asked me what kind of an impact that hotel [had on me], that business environment, that entertainment environment, the black lawyers who used to show up, the
Tyler
Now, were there other things, like say, recommendations that came from those connections, in other aspects of your life, or connections that you made at the Dunbar that showed up elsewhere that were important?
King
The fact that everyplace that I was during the war, I generally knew someone when other people did not. We would fly into New Jersey, and I would know someone in Newark. We would go into New York City, and I would know people in New York City. Everyplace that we would go, unless it was someone who had come from that particular area, I was one of the few people who knew folks all over the country.
Tyler
Also now, what other prominent black entertainers sung to the soldiers in the USO-type setting; did that occur again?
King
Yes, I knew almost every one of them, and they knew that I was there. Speaking of the air force, because my uncle had put a huge picture of me in the lobby, standing on the wing of the plane, that meant that everyone who came through, you couldn't check in without seeing this huge photo of me. And it was still very novel, you know, to have black pilots.
Tyler
It still is today.
King
I guess it is. [laughter] It might be more novel
Tyler
Do you remember the incident with Jesse Jackson bringing the guy back? He tried to make it and flunked out, so he was a bombadier. I don't, I'm not aware of any proliferation of black pilots, still. I mean it's still a very elitist situation today. I don't think we even had very many helicopter pilots in Vietnam, black helicopters, you know, the combat helicopters.
King
Very few. In fact it's the black women; my understanding is that there are only two. There may be more, but if any of them graduated, they would have graduated in the last six months. There were only two black women helicopter pilots. Of course, there were no black women pilots in World War II. There were women pilots, but none black. They used to ferry the planes in.
Tyler
Well, let me see, where are we here on the tape? It's got maybe five or ten more minutes. Well, now to sort of go back a little bit. When you came into L.A., you came in at the top. Now, in contrast to Chicago, were you aware, was that a big leap up in status and contact? How would that fit into your status in connections in Chicago? Were you tied into the black elite in Chicago, or not?
King
No, we really were not tied into the black elite in Chicago. Back in those Depression days, the question of
Tyler
Hasn't changed too much since then. [laughter] No, that's not true.
King
Well, you have now people who have paid a price and have gone through educational situations that have rewards that come solely as a result of spending the time and investing it in their personal development. In those days, even though you had used the time in personal development, there was no assurance that you'd be able to get a job.
Tyler
Terribly frustrating.
King
Yes. The teachers, of course, teachers and a few nurses at a few of the key hospitals that were basically county hospitals, they were able to get a check every payday. But I don't ever remember much about any high level of elitism in Chicago. The activities were around the religious end, the church: going to church on Sundays, having clean clothes when you would go to church, and a lot of the activities that the black church was able to represent a base. There were known people back in those
Tyler
So this was a very dramatic and successful step coming to L.A.
King
Oh, yeah, a major step up, major step up. I think we would have gone up the ladder as the society changed, but, you know, with upward mobility here—
Tyler
And as the economy too, went up. But this was a master stroke, a personal master stroke even before the economy was, you know, got out of the Depression, because the war brought it out.
King
It was a major difference, and it was a place that we all liked, too, so it was easy to make the moves. When you had been suffering through those difficult winters in Chicago with the wind commonly referred to as the hawk.
Tyler
It was pecking on you.
King
And, of course, got out here— And there's no such thing as outdoor swimming pools; there was only one that I can recall.
Tyler
You mean in Chicago there are no outdoor swimming pools?
Tape Number: IV, Side One
April 27, 1985
Tyler
We had talked about several major positive aspects of when you moved to, or your family came to L.A. and [bought] the Dunbar Hotel, that you moved up to the top in terms of the social circles. You talked about two very positive events that grew out of that: learning how to fly an airplane, and also meeting Lena Horne, and how that impacted you. Were there other positive things that occurred that you might want to talk about as a result?
King
Well, I think first of all, when I got here the entire environment was positive. Having come out of the real hard Depression in Chicago, living on the South Side certainly would not be in any way looked upon as the best of a background. Coming out of a place where we had hard winters and jobs were very few, and at a time when just the very basic necessities were extremely difficult to come by, to step from there into a place where you could walk around during the winter without having to have the burden of the weather as a factor— You could begin to use your ideas and your thoughts toward things other than, "Am I going to end up with my toes frozen off by the time I walk home?" Also, in coming to California, because of the fact that I had spent some time as a kid around the YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association] in Chicago, I was immediately
Tyler
Was that an elevator railroad car?
King
Yes, the elevated streetcar, you might call it, which was excellent transportation, and still is as far as mass transportation in Chicago.
Tyler
Was this Twenty-eighth and Central, the YMCA?
King
The YMCA was basically at Twenty-eighth and Central, one block from Central. And there, the funny thing about that, you may find when you get into a community that there are certain enclaves within that community that will present an excellent opportunity, and you find positive kind of thoughts, people who are attempting to improve their situation, and that's what I found when I got out here. So what I did was, and I didn't realize it that much when I was a kid, but I actually programmed myself so that I would be away from the elements that may lead down some
The YMCA at that particular time had controlled activities; we used to, of course, go swimming, play basketball—this was after school. I was able to run in, spend a short period of time down at the Y each day (generally it was about an hour) and that was it. I didn't ever really stay around the playgrounds or other kinds of things, so I wasn't really around. I left the school environment and went to a programmed YMCA environment. The people at the Y, of course, had their annual fund-raising event, which was designed to sustain the Y. Well, I was one of the youngsters, and we were all given a piece of the turf. I remember mine was to work from down by the old Lincoln Theatre, which, by the way, was a major theater in this town. It's been years, of course, since anybody's even mentioned the Lincoln Theatre; but that was Twenty-fourth [Street], Twenty-fifth Street and Central, and it was up to me to tag base and go in and ask each of the merchants for a contribution to the local YMCA. Well, I learned quite a bit from that, and I didn't even realize that I was learning it. But I found that, by and large, that the business community, if requested, would respond, and I'm talking about donations that were five dollars, ten dollars; I'm not talking about the major contributions.
Tyler
Black and white merchants?
King
Black and white merchants. Most of the professionals, oh, I'd say maybe half of the professionals were black. There were black M.D.'s, black dentists, there were small entrepreneurs that were on Central Avenue and on Avalon [Boulevard]. I sometimes even ventured out of my territory and went out— Well, it taught me two things: one, that you should, if you are a business person in the community, that you should make contributions towards perpetuating that community; that you should, you know, look to see what can be done for the younger people that are in that area; and you should likewise even participate in some of those activities. Those kinds of things, in addition to the fact that both my mother [Leontyne Butler King] and father [Celestus A. King, Jr.] participated in community events, represented a piece of my background that I have never been able to really make any changes on. I
Tyler
That's not the Louis [E.] Lomax guy?
King
No, that's not Louis Lomax, they are completely different. You're talking about Louis Lomax, the journalist and TV commentator. So I would say that just coming to Los Angeles made major, major changes. When I was a kid in Chicago, very, very seldom did I go to the downtown area; here, the downtown area seemed much more accessible and very simple to get to. It was not the long ride that it was in Chicago. Going to the downtown here was entirely different from the downtown in Chicago, because here you didn't have the huge, large buildings. Everything was very much like small-townish at that particular time, so merely coming here had a major impact. People had green lawns all year round, trees were beautiful, and, of course, at that time, there was no talk about smog and those other things, even though I've learned
Tyler
You mentioned the YMCA in Chicago, that you spent a great deal of time there. It was something we didn't talk about, or it didn't come up before. Did that play a big role in keeping you out of trouble in Chicago, and were you aware of it then, or did your parents get you involved? How did you get involved?
King
Well, I always liked to swim, and I liked to play Ping-Pong. Ping-Pong was one of my real things that I really enjoyed, and there were no Ping-Pong tables anyplace when I grew up in Chicago, except the South Side Boys Club and the YMCA. So that was good. And, of course, before and after swimming, Ping-Pong was always one of the major things that the kids did. Of course, a lot of them played checkers and chess and those kinds of things, so it was a good environment. I rather suspect, now that I look back, that it was probably my dad who steered me in the direction
Tyler
I recall that Richard Wright in his—was it Black Boy, or was it Native Son, or some of his other writings from actual experiences?—was saying that a lot of gangs in Chicago actually were by the lake during the forties, clustering around the Boys Club, dealing drugs and everything else, which it was supposed to keep them away from. Did you experience any of that?
King
Not a lot. They probably got, oh, a good deal of attention because of the fact that the YMCA and the South Side Boys Club were clearly identifiable, but they laundered their activities mostly elsewhere, as I saw it. Different people may have different perspectives, but my view is that, yes, it was a situation where whatever
Tyler
Did a lot of the Woodlawn kids go too?
King
No, there were not that many from Woodlawn who went that far, because, first of all, I had to walk about ten blocks to get onto the elevator, just to go there. Either that, or I had to ride and do a transfer in connection with it, but I thought it was a great environment, and of all Chicago. I think that the combination of the Woodlawn situation, which really was not too bad, as I look back, and the YMCA just kept me in a track, so that my time was used up. And I just didn't have time for the gang involvement.
Tyler
So you certainly learned to swim there. Was that
King
Yes, it came out of the YMCA.
Tyler
So when you jumped off the cliff at the Michigan—
King
I think it was at Fifty-Fifth [Street] and Michigan [Avenue].
Tyler
That still was attributed to your YMCA experience?
King
Right. Let's call it for a second. [tape recorder off]
Tyler
Okay, it's back on. Would you say that your athletic prowess was more developed, or you became more conscious of it as a result of the Boys Club?
King
Yeah, I never had much in terms of real team competitive sports, in terms of a background. When I played basketball, it was just whoever lined up at that particular time; and it was basically that my family always told me that you better learn something, and that swimming is nice, and that bouncing a basketball is nice, and playing football and those kinds of things should be recreation, and that you should not be counting on them.
Of course, back in those days, the opportunities for athletes was not that available, and for those that were professional athletes, the kind of dollars that they made certainly didn't particularly influence folk. Besides that, my mind was always on how to fly a plane, even at
Tyler
And you're still not certain how you got attached to that?
King
No, I really just don't know. I cannot put my finger on a single thing, except that I was just absolutely preoccupied with airplanes. I used to go to Woolworth's, the five-and-ten store, and I couldn't have been more than ten years old, or less than even ten probably, eight or nine, and I used to buy the little aircrafts, and I used to also buy for fifteen, twenty cents the little sets that will allow you to put airplanes together. And I would go home, and I would get down on the floor in my front room, and I would stay down there until I had to go to dinner. And then after dinner, well, you know, my dad insisted that I sit down and do homework. But, hey, the next day, I was right back there, and I used to just fumble around and build these planes, one after another.
I never was particularly that skilled in terms of really building the planes. But I don't think it was really important that you could build one that would possibly be used as part of an exhibit or something. But it was that you had learned what made planes go, you learned little things like the empennage section, the
Tyler
That was fast.
King
That was a big thing. And the commercial aircraft like the Ford triplane and those kind of things, I used to try to build those, and, you know, I really had rubber bands around there that were used to turn those props. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. I never really had any instructions on it either. I can't ever remember having anyone to give me any instructions on how to build those planes.
Tyler
Did they have reading instructions, or you just started putting them together?
King
They had reading instructions, and that was one of the things that my dad always made me do when I was very small. He wouldn't let me start out on anything. He would make me read the directions, and I'm still into that today. Read before you act, get some information. My dad and I used to sit down, and he'd give me a little time, but
Tyler
Did you save all these planes?
King
Over a period of time those planes kind of all disappeared, including one that I had until very recently, and now it has disappeared.
Tyler
You don't quite know what happened to it?
King
Well, it probably got swept out with the trash; you can't save everything. You have a limited amount of space,
Tyler
Did any of your peer-group people ever get involved, or was that sort of real private, the airplane experience?
King
No, the group that I was around—no members of my family, none of the kids that I grew up with. I did not know any pilots, I had never even seen a pilot on a one-to-one basis.
Tyler
I mean, in terms of your peer group, did you say, "Hey, this is great! Why don't you buy you one?" You know, like kids play marbles and do certain things together, and it becomes sort of a group deal?
King
It never became a group situation, and I never did— None of the other kids had much of an interest.
Tyler
So it's something you nursed privately, pretty much.
King
Everybody knew that I was always playing around with airplanes, but nobody had much of a reaction to it one way or the other. But I found it enjoyable then, and I still have that same kind of concern.
Tyler
What were the ultimate benefits of getting involved
King
You know, it never really was sales that I was into as far as seeing the business people in the community was concerned. But what it did do, it assisted me in understanding that there is a thing out there called a business decorum, that there is a normalcy, that sometimes people will turn you down, and [that] they will turn you down for a whole host of reasons, and still you cannot lose their friendship. I learned as a kid that, hey, I may have to come back to these same people at some future date. But it was my first exposure to small-business people, and I began to develop a very healthy respect for the small-business person. In fact, I came to the conclusion early on that I would rather have my own business and work harder and make less than to have a comfortable job.
Tyler
How did that occur? What experience, what perceptions? Did that grow slowly? Did you see it right away, or was it at a certain age or time period, some event that sparked it?
King
Well, the small-business people seemed to be able to have much more control over what happened to them. They seemed to be able to get out and to go into areas that other people just did not bother to venture into. Yes,
Tyler
Were there statements that they made, or perceptions? Did anyone ever sort of set you down and explain that to you, or you just were picking it up yourself?
King
Mostly, it was that having grown up with my dad always being in sort of some kind of business. Even though he might pick up a job here and there, he always kept some kind of little business situation going, so it was very normal for me to have admiration for people that were somewhat like my dad; and the most influencing people in my life were clearly my mother and my father. I've always had a very, very healthy respect for both of them, and they deserved it and they earned it, because they were very, very fine people, both of them.
Tyler
Well, certainly too, buying the Dunbar Hotel almost as a family business certainly was the bedrock, I mean, a big one at least, I imagine.
King
That was the whole attitude of our family, and that is that everybody should understand that we have obligations out there to each other, and that even though we have these obligations that that did not mean that everyone should not individually be successful, and it
Tyler
Did your parents drill into you that you should have a perspective of being self-employed? Or Jimmy [Uncle James] Nelson? Or did any particular business person— like, say, along the lines of Jimmie Lunceford actually taking you and showing you how to fly a plane—did any business person take you under their wings somewhat like that and advise you and guide you in any way?
King
Yes, my dad and my uncle [James Nelson], both of them. And the way they did it was basically by example. They didn't take a lot of time to explain it to me; they just showed me by what they did that five o'clock means that some other people get off from work. It didn't have any impact on them whatsoever. At five o'clock they just rolled their sleeves up. It just had nothing to do with it. Dinner meant not sitting around—of course, radio was the big thing at that time—it did not mean that you stop in order to listen to the radio. If you want to listen to the radio, turn the radio on. They never stopped, they just kept on, you know, consistently doing whatever it was that they were into. Also, they taught me another thing, and that is to be able to have a constant stream of interruptions, to deal with those interruptions, and then to go right back where they were on target.
How did that actually, what experiences—
King
Well, being around the hotel desk, around the lobby. There were projects that they had to complete, and every ten minutes somebody would come up and say hello. They would go and they would break whatever they were doing, go up, exchange whatever the norms were in terms of dealing with that particular situation; whatever the minimum level of expectancy was, [it] was always met in a courteous style, and then back to the drawing board to whatever it was that they were doing. I learned a long time ago that you cannot necessarily control the environment that you're in, but that is not an excuse for not completing the project.
Tyler
You don't let those disruptions cause you to fall to pieces and throw up your hands?
King
That's a part of it. That's part of putting the project together, the interruptions. And today, you know, I will tell the receptionist or the secretary, "Under no circumstances call me. I'm back here, I'm involved. I'm doing something, I have a meeting going on." But still, all that says to them, and they know me well, is that unless it's absolutely urgent, then don't call me, but if it is urgent, definitely call me. So, fine, I can deal with that series of interruptions and never lose my track, just keep on; whatever it happens to require, fine, because
Tyler
Right. Certainly that experience, as you say, that style and that pattern came out of the hotel there, because when you have customers there, you got to go see what their needs are. Well, coming to L.A., what were some of the first things you did as a child? What school did you go to?
King
Well, first thing was to go into a high school, and I went to Manual Arts High School. That had about thirty-five blacks at the time and over three thousand total number of people that were there. It was the first time that I was really in what to me was a totally noticeable situation of black and white. I really hadn't taken that much of a concern about segregation and integration and those things. [When] I came up, it was the standard and the style of life, and most of our activities were around blacks (the church, of course, which was influential); but here I found myself with a very, very small number of blacks and a large number of very normal, cordial white youngsters, and got along quite well, just because I never had any unnecessary confrontations. We knew where the line was in Chicago. I mean, you didn't go past the railroad tracks at Sixty-ninth Street. Conversely, the whites that were on the other side didn't come over on our turf, and it
Tyler
Exchange home visits?
King
Not very much in exchanging home visits. By and large, the whites didn't come that much into the black community, and the blacks didn't go that much into the white community, and, of course, there was a small group of people that were living on what we called the Westside at that time. They lived between Jefferson [Boulevard] and Exposition [Boulevard], and basically between Vermont [Avenue], oh, and Arlington [Avenue], and there was that group; there were a few families that lived north of Jefferson, between Western [Avenue] and maybe Arlington. Of course, back in those days, the restrictive convenant was alive and well, and the problem of being able to purchase individual homes was a major factor. This was long before the Sugar Hill kind of section opened up.
By and large, the blacks that were in those areas certainly socially fit at the highest level as far as the Los Angeles black community was concerned. Now, that is not to say that everyone who lived over there was that anxious to be counted among the socially affluent. Most of the blacks that lived over there still made a living in the Central Avenue area if they had a business, or if they did not have a business, then they generally worked elsewhere. They didn't work and live on what we call the Westside of Los Angeles. And again, I think that I had mentioned before that basically what the blacks did was they divided up the area that they functioned in, and then Main Street was used as the difference between the Eastside and the Westside. And what, of course, we call west, you know, living on the Westside did not mean the Westside of Los Angeles, it meant the west side of the ghetto.
Tyler
I mean, we still, blacks use Westside differently than whites do.
King
Absolutely.
Tyler
We use it in terms of the race-division line, and, technically, Westside in the formal sense of the city has a different definition.
King
Right, if you put the map on the wall—
Tyler
Now, the Westside would be west of the freeway there, the Harbor [Freeway]. Main [Street] is on the other
King
Oh, I think West Los Angeles would be La Cienega [Boulevard] west, and, of course, the only time we ever saw La Cienega was going by it, going out to Santa Monica to the little inkwell section that we had down at the beach. And that didn't bother me; none of the things that would normally bother a person, all these were a step up to me.
Tyler
So this integrated school where you were a minority was new [to you]; this was something you saw as a plus, a positive?
King
Very much so.
Tyler
Did the other blacks feel that way?
King
The blacks that were there? Yeah, I think that they had a consciousness of the fact that, say, they were not attending Jefferson High School, which was the principal black high school.
Tyler
Now, were you in the Manual Arts district, or did you just give another address to move there?
King
I gave another address, but my uncle, when he did come to Los Angeles, bought two small apartment buildings that were slightly west of Western. And, of course, when I came here, I lived very close to Jefferson High School, and with me it would have been just as normal as apple pie to have gone to Jefferson High, and it would not have disturbed me in the least. But I had the opportunity to go to
Tyler
You gave the apartment address that Jimmy Nelson—
King
Yes.
Tyler
Who made that decision? You or your parents? One of your parents?
King
My parents made that decision, but what they did was we got in the automobile and we actually drove and we looked at both schools. It was a little lightweight family project, and I felt like I was a participant in the determination, and I don't think that they felt that they were manipulating me in the process. I think they were simply saying, "Well, look, here's an opportunity for you to go to school there." And because of the fact it was the first school that I had attended in Los Angeles, it meant that this was the first time that I was recording an address, so it was very simple.
I can't ever remember any problems that occurred as a result of using that address. And, in fact, many, many evenings after school, I would stop by over there, because it was family, and just go in and eat a bread and butter
Tyler
Now, did you at any time ever feel that there was a loss of social relationships or that you were away from the mainstream of blacks, that you felt deprived or imposed upon at any time?
King
Not at all. Because I used to also, on occasion, go over to Jefferson High School, which was in the area, and go over there sometimes for activities. Sometimes when they would have football games or basketball games, I would go over there. So, no, I never felt that. And I was not the only person that lived in the area that went to schools outside of there. There were not that many, but there were others, so—
Tyler
Out of that thirty-five, were many or most of those giving addresses other than their actual place where they lived?
King
I would say that probably two-thirds of those youngsters in fact lived in the district, but what are you talking about: twenty people, twenty kids out of three thousand plus. So I would think that most of them did in fact—
Tyler
Did the school district wink at that, or they just never questioned it?
There were so few of us, you know, you're talking about 1 percent of the population. So there were so few. We really did not create problems at all, and of those thirty or so, I guess twenty of them were involved in other kinds of activities at the school. We had a few on the track team, a few on the baseball team, etc. So, by and large, it was an exemplary group of youngsters that were there, very fine group of youngsters. I can't hardly remember any time that there were any blacks that had any real difficulty over there at all.
Tyler
And as a group, did they go on to be high achievers above the norm?
King
Most of them did, most of them did. I would say that—
Tyler
Any outstanding names, like—
King
Outstanding in the sense that they left a lot of name identity behind them, but they were successes as far as people are concerned: Jackie Robinson, for instance, who was the outstanding athlete around here—not the, I guess; he was one of five. Because there was Kenny Washington, and Strode, and—
Tyler
Is that Tommy Strode?
King
[Woodrow] Strode that used to play end at UCLA, and Kenny Washington the football player. So I would say that—
Tape Number: IV, Side Two
April 27, 1985
Tyler
Okay, go ahead.
King
I would say on balance. I just can't remember many of those students.
Tyler
They had successful careers, they just weren't—
King
Weren't that noticeable.
Tyler
Like Ralph Bunche, but still [had] distinguished careers.
King
They had a number of alumni over there who have been very successful, but they are not that well known. Some who went on to become principals of schools, and, you know, principals of schools are known quite well in their area, but they're not generally known. I am very pleased to say, though, that so many of them were very successful.
Tyler
Very good. I guess we should wind this up then for our hour today.
King
Hey, that's great, Bruce.
Tape Number: V, Side One
May 25, 1985
Tyler
Yeah, well, we had left off talking about your connections with the business community and the YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association].
King
Oh, when I was a youngster.
Tyler
Yeah, because in the past you hadn't mentioned that you had a YMCA connection in Chicago. Then you had one here; you talked about you had transferred it over. I think we were pursuing what impact did your peer group have on you in L.A., too. Did you get into a peer-group situation? As you'll recall, we [left] off right away at the Dunbar [Hotel]: what were the benefits? And then the question was raised by me: what were the negatives? And I think you said there weren't really too many negatives you could think of. And so we were going back to when you first came here. What about school? Where did you live? And your peer group.
King
That's right, it's jogging the memory.
Tyler
So right away, did you fall into a peer group? What school did you enroll in?
King
Manual Arts [High School], and I fell into multiple groups.
Tyler
[When] you started you fell into the ninth, tenth grade?
Tenth grade.
Tyler
It was tenth to the twelfth grade?
King
Yeah. Have you turned it on?
Tyler
Yeah, it's on.
King
Oh, okay. No, I didn't realize that you had already turned it on.
Okay, let's see. My recollection is that I guess I fell into sort of three or four peer groups when I got here. One was the natural situation of the high school that I attended, which had an attendance of about three thousand there and about 1 percent, maybe thirty students there who were a black ethnic minority, and it meant because I was with this group for my entire school day that naturally those relationships would just come to pass. Frankly, I was happy to be in California. I was very happy to see Los Angeles sun in February. I mean, when I thought about the weathers that I had gone through, I mean, everything feels so good to me. Looking at the palm trees, I just made a firm commitment that never in my entire life would I live any place other than Los Angeles. And I guess one of the things that I was always saying is that I will continuously try to help build Los Angeles and make it into a better place for people to live, even though at that time I could not imagine a better place. There were all sorts of problems that I just totally ignored. I was just very,
The YMCA transfer situation from Chicago was something that my parents didn't even have to tell me about. I started seeking out that as soon as my foot was firmly planted on the ground. Hey, I just naturally moved in that direction of going to the YMCA, which was probably one of the key things that kept me from being exposed to a lot of the nonsense in the community, because the kids that went to the YMCA basically came out of good families, people that were trying to move their kids along. A number of those kids did do quite well. It's been a long time, and it's hard to identify what most of them are doing now, but I can think back and I can clearly remember that the YMCA had an almost 100 percent perfect record of kids who did not get in any trouble, who were not down at "juvey" [juvenile] hall, who were not having problems, who were doing well in school and who were pushing. They just didn't seem to attract the people that were into other kinds of things.
I also fell in very easily with the neighborhood group. The neighborhood group was made up of some of the finest people that were in the black community: a fellow named Grimes who lived in the next block, who ultimately was appointed by Governor Jerry [Edmund G.] Brown [Jr.] to
Tyler
What's his first name?
King
Grimes, Leonard. Down the street, a block away were the Houston brothers [Norman B. and Ivan J.]. They went on, of course, to be very prominent both in our city, state, and national [governments]. There was Norman Houston, who incidentally preceded me as president of the Los Angeles NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People], and who later was appointed in Washington as a deputy secretary in HUD [Department of Housing and Urban Development], and who then later became an independent consultant in Washington for many years, and recently has returned to Los Angeles. He is the chairman— I withdraw chairman—the director of a community organization called the Black Agenda [Inc.]. It's made up of a large cross section of our community. In addition, there was Ivan— Oh, by the way, Norman attended your school; he attended UCLA, and he played football there. I think he played center or something like that years ago. Ivan, his brother, went on to become very involved in the Golden State [Mutual] Life Insurance Company and today is the president of that organization. He is a man of impeccable character. He has raised his family, and he's made many, many contributions, just like Norman, to this community.
There were young folks like Bert [Gilbert C.] Kenner, who went on to gain some acknowledgment in our community as a business person and later established his own independent firm that does appraisals. There were people like [John] Lamar Hill, who did not live in that immediate area, but was a part of a rather, part of the more elitist structure. There was Horace Clark (his father owned the Clark Hotel), and Horace was over at USC [University of Southern California]; that's where he finished school. And just in general there were so many people who have done a very good job. There was Elbert [T.] Hudson, who has gone on to become the very distinguished president of Broadway Federal Savings [and Loan Association]. He and his family are institutions in our community and have always made major contributions. Incidentally, El Hudson and I came through the Tuskegee [Institute] experience.
Tyler
He was a flyer?
King
He was a pilot.
Tyler
Did you know him then?
King
Oh, of course! We came from Los Angeles. And they, you know, were about the community. You have people like Leroy Beavers, who went on to establish probably one of the largest insurance agencies (he was a major factor with Equitable Life [Assurance Society of the United States]), who has been extremely successful. You had some of, almost
Tyler
Did you associate with them quite frequently?
King
Well, the answer is yes, because of the fact that there were so many boundaries around the community [that] the situation of whether or not you were going to see these other people and interact with them, well, it was almost a foregone conclusion that you would be. And I didn't mean that, by any means, that it was like a school contact, where you saw the same people every day, but the activities
Tyler
Now, what was significant about those relationships? What happened at the time? Were [there] any dramatic incidents, or value systems? Attitudes or goals that were obvious and you were aware of? Did you feel you were special, or anything?
King
Well, I just knew that I was going to be a success. I mean, it never even occurred to me that I was not going to be a success. I was around two real success models, both my mother [Leontyne Butler King] and my father [Celestus A. King, Jr.], and it never occurred to me of being any less than having a very successful and rewarding and a fruitbearing-type life. I mean, I knew pretty well that I was going to have a family. I knew that I would be in business of some sort. I knew that I would ultimately complete my education, whatever I had to do in order to do it. I knew that I was going to be a community activist. I knew that I would have something to do with the destiny of this community. It was just clear to me at all times. It was a foregone conclusion, I never even gave it a second thought.
Tyler
Would you say that was true of your peer group?
King
Well, I think so. I think if you would ask Norman Houston or Ivan Houston or Leonard Grimes or Bert Kenner or John Lamar Hill if they were going to be successful, I
Tyler
What joint activities did you and this peer group do together? Did you all go to the YMCA together?
King
Well, my situation was kind of odd. I was one of the few who really went from group to group to group, so the group would have ongoing activities and I would simply
Tyler
For example?
King
Well, for example, I used to go over to Jefferson High School on occasion, maybe once or twice each week when I'd come from Manual Arts, and that group would be all into, let's go to the football game or the basketball game or whatever was really in vogue in that particular season. It really only involved those two sports on a major basis, but there were other things. So when I would plug in over there, I would sometimes go to those activities with them.
The frats were fairly active too, and they had sports activities, especially basketball, back in those days. So I would simply plug into activities that were ongoing. They would have parties and social activities, and I found that on a Friday night—and that's generally when the activities would occur, a few on Saturdays—I would go to both. And I got in the habit of going places, talking with the people that were there, and then leaving and going to another place. So I was setting up a calendar, which was sort of what we called it: the Eastside and the Westside, Main Street being east, and west of Main being west. I was generally going from place to place on Friday night, where most other people were staying wherever their activity and wherever their group was. I was able to do that for a
Tyler
That was in high school, you had a car?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
Tenth grade?
King
As soon as I was fifteen and a half. You could get a driver's license at fifteen and a half, and the day I was fifteen and a half was the day I had a car.
Tyler
You bought that car yourself?
King
My dad helped me. The payment on the automobile— It was a Model A; we bought it down on automobile row. At that time it was Figueroa [Street] and—
Tyler
Figueroa used to be called automobile row?
King
It was automobile row, that's right, from Jefferson [Boulevard] probably to, oh, Twelfth Street, almost Olympic [Boulevard]; it was automobile row all the way, and it still is to some extent right now automobile row. There are other automobile rows now, but that was the automobile row.
I bought a Model A Ford, and I've forgotten what the price was, but it was less than a hundred dollars. The payment on it was $3.50 a week, and I believe my dad paid $1.50 a week on it, and I paid $2.00. Or it was vice versa: he paid the $2.00, and I paid the $1.50.
Now there were other expenses that were involved in
Tyler
Was this a white or black employer?
King
Black employer. He owned the gas station, and the gas station was at [Forty-third] Street and Central [Avenue]. I worked ten hours a day for two dollars a day, and it was a good job. Given the fact that there were no jobs, it was a good job. And you had those kinds of things. Now, sometimes during the day, when I would wipe off people's windows quite well, you get a tip here and there, you know, a dime, fifteen cents, once in a while a quarter—
Tyler
A lot of money then.
King
Oh, yes, and how! I knew that it was rewarding; if you do a good enough job on a consistent basis, that it will have favorable feedback. And I knew that, and I always then established a high standard of doing things. I always intended to do a good job. I've never tried to give
Tyler
Why is that?
King
I really feel committed to service, and I think that you should, if you are going to take a business and make an effort to elevate it to a profession, then what you should do is to be professional. And I do not think that it is necessary to accept gratuities in terms of dollars or gifts or those kinds of things. Now, if it is a situation where people make referrals to me, that is what I want, but in terms of somebody giving me X number of dollars, something
Tyler
Now, what advantages did having a car bring? Or disadvantages? Did it dramatically change your life?
King
It tremendously did. Number one, I was able to get around. There were only a few places that we could go in those days. I was able to go to the beach if I chose to, and I could go down to Santa Monica, jump in the ocean, get back in the car, drive back and say, "Oh boy, this California's great." Not that if in Chicago I could not have done the same thing and driven to Lake Michigan and done the same thing. I think that the big difference to me was one of the timing, and that is that I just enjoyed jumping in that Pacific occasionally, and that was just great.
The other thing is Val Verde; Val Verde was sort of the black Palm Springs at that time, and I was able to drive there. It was about fifty-five miles from my house, but I was able to drive up to Val Verde. Val Verde at that time was a place where almost, I'd say half of the major families in town owned a lot and frequently had a house on it, and if they did not have a house on it, well, they were planning on building one. So Val Verde was the place to go. There was also a group of people who had some loyalty to a couple of other places, but Val Verde seemed to be the
Tyler
Is this something your parents bought up there, a lot up there, or you?
King
No, I bought the place up there. It's about ten acres that's pretty excellent, and maybe another four or five that are pretty usable. The whole place is thirty-two acres. It's on a hillside, so it kind of goes up into the sort of mountainous area. You know, like half of it is not really that usable, but it is a very nice place, and it's breathtaking. During the sixties, we used to take the kids up there every weekend, and in the summer my wife Anita [Givens King] would just take the kids up there, and they would just stay. I would commute, you know, back and forth; it was always great. We ultimately ended up with horses and other kinds of things, a good opportunity for
Tyler
And you bought the place when?
King
I bought it in the early sixties.
Tyler
You bought it all at one time, the acres at one time?
King
Yes, one time.
Tyler
Was that from a black real estate group?
King
Yeah, I bought it from a black woman [Sudie Brock]. Prior to that, she had bought it from a white, but I bought it from a black woman.
Tyler
There was a whole movement to get a black settlement in Val Verde, was it?
King
There was, yes.
Tyler
In fact, one of my friends, Ray Smith, his sister or aunt or one of his relatives was very important in that. He was showing me some pictures and parades.
King
There was— Every year there was a parade; in fact—
Tyler
What was the parade for?
King
Summer parade. There was a beauty pageant up there,
Tyler
Oh, really?
King
We had wagons, we had old wagons, and we'd hitch the horses up to them. We had a surrey, and pictures came out in all the papers up there, and it was a big event; a lot of people came to watch the event.
Tyler
How many would you say?
King
Oh, maybe ten thousand. It was well publicized, and people from L.A., some coming up from the Pacoima area, which was reasonably close, and many coming from the inner city, mostly, I guess, out of nostalgia.
Tyler
Now, was this strictly a private area, county or city projects, or territory?
King
Well, one of the things that gave it the stability was the fact that it had been selected for whatever reason to be sort of a place where blacks would be able to go, so that they would not be involved in trying to break into other areas. And the county made a tremendous investment up there; they have a fifty-acre county park, and as I say, with the swimming pool and all and the field house and the upkeep and things, that was a tremendous involvement, a financial involvement.
Tyler
What county personnel or supervisor was that?
Oh, they had a full complement. They had always a park director, and he had—
Tyler
Was he black?
King
Black, yeah. Actually, a black woman was up there for many years, probably ten years, and at the time that I was attending [there] it was a black male who was in charge. There was even somewhat of an integrated staff up there, because the impact up there was basically in the summer months, and—
Tyler
Did a few people live up there during the regular year?
King
Most of the people lived in Los Angeles and simply owned a house up there.
Tyler
And many more would just go up there to the park, who were not owning any property, of course.
King
Right. There were always two motels around—I think it's three now—but there were motels that were around. Incidentally, the PBS [Public Broadcasting System], the public TV people did a major piece in connection with Val Verde.
Tyler
Recently?
King
Oh, about five years ago. That piece was aired all across the country, talking about sort of the history of sort of a black Palm Springs out here and what has happened and how it's evolving, how the changes are taking place in
I turned out to be probably the resource base as far as blacks were up there, because I had known it for so many years until they pulled me in. And I went up there and spent a day with them. We walked and drove and talked about Val Verde, and I think it was a very remarkable piece. Of course, I was also interviewed by a couple of the other radio channels, after Channel 28, which is our public broadcast down here, after they aired it. And I did those interviews. I really talked about the whole anatomy of an area that was once black that was going to be reverse integrated, and it is coming to pass. The canyon itself is probably one of the finest canyons in Southern California; it's absolutely beautiful.
Tyler
Now, how far is Val Verde from L.A.?
King
It's fifty miles roughly, depending on where you're leaving from in L.A.
Tyler
Now, is that still a boom area for blacks, or what?
King
It is not a boom area for blacks at all anymore. Blacks don't go up there in any large amount. There are a number of blacks that are up there that are living, but it is comparatively few in numbers to the great influx of blacks that used to come up there on weekends.
Tyler
When did it collapse as a boom area for black summer recreation?
I think in the early seventies is when it began to turn down.
Tyler
Is there any special reason why?
King
I think with the opening up of so many other areas, they simply couldn't meet the competitive approach. You know, I had the choice of selling out and moving that asset, for instance, to Palm Springs, just as many other people had other areas. There are probably twenty-five, thirty good areas. You've got the Big Bear area, that whole mountain situation that's up there; there are a number of blacks who ended up by going to that area. There are a few other lakes that are around. The [Lake] Elsinore situation, which has kind of gone dry and then overflowed with water (and water being its base draw), was also a place where a number of blacks used to go years ago. It was somewhat similar as far as a place for blacks to go, just like Val Verde. Some had a preference for one or the other. But Val Verde began to make its turn down, and it could not bear the time and the test of hard integration.
Tyler
Integration then was a factor. Was Val Verde ever a national attraction?
King
Oh, I would say it was nationally known. It was not a national attraction because they generally never had the kind of facilities for people to be able to stay there. And because it's about five miles off of the main highway,
Tyler
Now, did your parents have a summer home? Did they ever acquire their summer home and provide it for you coming up this way?
King
No, we didn't ever have a summer home. We went to places in the summer where friends of my parents would have places, like up in Victorville; there were a few blacks up there who had ranches, up in the desert a hundred miles or so.
Tyler
Like who?
King
Let me see if I can think of some of the names; those are awfully old-timers. Given our next discussion, I will give you some of those. The most prominent and the most nationally known was called Murray's Ranch, and this is not the same Murray with the pomade, just similar names. That ranch was well known as the black dude ranch. Herb Jeffries used to go up there and ride around on the horse.
Oh, he was a black buckaroo, right?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
He did a lot of black movies. Did they ever do black movies there?
King
Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sure they did, because that place got an awful lot of attention as far as blacks were concerned.
Tyler
Now, this summer home, how did you see that? Was that a major— I mean, why did you decide to buy it? What was the reasoning and impact of that? Well, you said some of the impact. What was the reasoning? How did you come to buy it?
King
Well, one time I was trying to put together the classic statement, which was to have everything going that's needed. I guess it was maybe an early version of the yuppie approach. It was to have excellent domestic relationships, you know: good wife, good children, good home, good transportation, good business; own an office, a home, and a spot to go on the weekends. So I was really, I think, without thinking so much about it, trying to put the classic textbook full balance. There were the vacations that were somewhat scheduled; there was the business trips that were scheduled sometimes around events. There was the involvement in attending the plays. We used to take all our kids to opening nights of the light opera plays here in
Tyler
Did you see this as a status model? Were you consciously, like, social climbing, the term sociologists use?
King
I didn't really see myself social climbing, because I saw myself as already there, with a balance. I went to all the major football games, all the major dances that occurred, the major key activities that were political that occurred. I always knew, for instance, all of the people at a political level: the congresspeople, the senators, the governor, and, of course, assembly and city council, mayor, those kinds of things. Always knew all those people on a first-name basis. Always participated in the key activities that occurred. We were socially responsible as far as our community was concerned. So I saw myself as having put it all together. Somewhat the remnants of those things are that I still own a ranch for weekends, which I don't go to.
Tyler
That's not the house at Val Verde?
King
Yes, it's still there.
Are the horses still there?
King
No. No.
Tyler
Just the land?
King
The land is there and there's, well what we sometimes call now our "Tobacco Road" shack, but it used to look like the house on the hill.
Tyler
No one maintains it?
King
Yes, I have a person that lives up there, and they maintain it. It doesn't cost me very much to maintain it, because I don't charge the person any rent, and I furnish some services, and they furnish some services. So it's sort of a trade-off kind of situation. Of course, you still always have to concern yourself with what people are doing, so it means that you have to find somebody who just wants to be up there. I mean, you just can't pick somebody up basically from a want ad and send them up there. I mean, they have to like the place and want to be up there. And we pretty well had it all together. I made all the major sports activities across the country. When the World Series came up—
Tyler
You were off and gone!
King
I was generally there at the opening game. I never went seven games, but I was there for the opening game. All the major fights that took place, major track meets even. In fact, I went over to Rome in 1960, after having
Tyler
For the 1960 Olympians?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Did that have anything to do with some of the local athletes that got you involved, or [were] you part of the race pride of the blacks participating?
King
Well, I think that I was attracted to things that would attract maybe an awful lot of people if they could do it. Example: if—you can't use today's criteria—but if you were going to have a major fight someplace across this country, there was tremendous interest in it; it didn't have to be a heavyweight fight, as they draw this, that, and the other, fine. There was sort of a situation of, hey, if I had a choice to be [somewhere] next Thursday night, okay, where would I be? Well, fine, I would be wherever the major event is that is taking place, and that's what I did.
Tyler
Do you think that that was a part of your moving at an early age from Chicago to L.A. and saying, "Wow, this is great!" and then having a car and going from party to party, from group to group? It was a larger extension of that?
That's all it was, it really was.
Tyler
To be where the action was?
King
Yeah. In fact, I used to go into towns— I remember so clearly, for instance, in 1961 going into Cincinnati when they were having— Cincinnati had won the pennant, and they were having the World Series there, and I went into that town, and I did not know on a personal basis one individual. A number of people had been called in Cincinnati saying I was coming there, and I've always sort of had one press person to handle my press situation.
Tyler
This is what year?
King
Well, 1961.
Tyler
And you had a press person?
King
Oh, yeah, I've always had a press person.
Tape Number: V, Side Two
May 25, 1985
King
My press guy at that time was Lawrence [F.] Lamar.
Tyler
Is that John Lamar's brother?
King
No, this is Lawrence Lamar, and Lawrence Lamar for some fifty years had the Negro Press Bureau.
Tyler
Oh, that's right.
King
Lawrence worked out of my office. Now, he did all—
Tyler
What office? Was this bail bonds then?
King
It was out of the bail bond office. Yeah, I was on Central Avenue at the time. I was in the corner office at the Dunbar Hotel, and Lawrence would sent out national releases on a once-a-month basis, basically stressing anything that I had done positive. You tend to live up to those things to some extent. Fine. So I went into this town of Cincinnati, and, as I say, I had a few phone numbers. And they had hit the press, you know, that I was coming from L.A., meaning the black paper back there. I'm not talking about the dailies or any of those things back in those days. And just fine. I hit that town, I was there for three days, and on the night of the third night—
Tyler
What year?
King
'Sixty-one. They had a going-away party for me.
Tyler
Who did?
King
Blacks in Cincinnati. Now, I was able to go into
Tyler
And get a focus on you right away.
King
Quickly. But the preliminary work was always done, right, and I did it town after town. I went into Portland, Oregon; I knew one person in Portland when I went there. Now, it turned out I knew a lot of people, but I didn't identify them. Same identical thing in Seattle, you name it. Even places like Ogden, Utah, where they didn't have newspapers. Lawrence Lamar would send the news release out to the local Elks Lodge, the American Legion and the other black civic clubs that were there, and somehow he seemed to know a lot of folks everywhere, even though he never traveled at all. Fine. Whoever was there who was the head of the, maybe of the local black union, or whatever it happened to be, hey, zip, straight to the top of the thing, you know.
Tyler
What did that do, give you a place to stay when you arrived, someone to show you around, introduce you?
King
I always preferred to stay in hotels because of the privacy that you have and the fact that you are not always on front row center; yet I enjoyed being front row center when I stepped out of the privacy, but I wanted to have the enclave that I could always go back into. And almost every place I would go, Lawrence would always do the advance number, and he did the advance number from right where he
Tyler
They actually would publish the releases?
King
Oh yeah, he was a professional writer. He knew how to put them together, along with a picture when he thought a picture was appropriate. We'd always buy the pictures a hundred at a time, just as I do now. I got boxes of them that are up there, and, fine, and, you know, it worked. So there roughly were a hundred papers across this country that Lawrence Lamar used to send out releases to. Now, if you could ask me if I could afford this major kind of involvement and expense that was there, the answer is that I could not afford not to have it, because I actually made money as a result of that. Because I was the only black really identified with the bail bond business at that time in Los Angeles. If anyone had family elsewhere in the country, they were, in general, able to identify me as being here. And just as today, there is not a day that goes by, including today, where this morning I got a phone call from some people in Saint Louis because they have a relative in custody out here, so it, to me, has been a situation that has been rewarding from a number of standpoints. I really have so long ago passed the ego point where I have a need for this, because it's something
Tyler
Now, why and when did you start this? What was the purpose of this type of introduction?
King
Well, it was really a fairly fortuitous kind of a situation when the opportunity came, yet I was always concerned with that. So when the opportunity came, well, fine, I just reached in to do it. I had some relatives, for instance, who took pride in the fact that their picture had never been in the newspaper. That was important to them. On the other hand, my mother was very socially active, and it meant that she was in the social section of the newspaper all the time and was always in the ten bestdressed women, all of those things, year in and year out. It also was that my dad paid for ad space, and when you pay for ad space, it also means that you have the latitude of being able to get other things into a newspaper.
Tyler
This was ads for the Dunbar.
King
Ads for the Dunbar and ads— My dad went into the liquor business.
Tyler
Wholesale or retail?
King
Retail. He had a couple of liquor stores.
In the Central Avenue area?
King
Yeah, one was on skid row, at Sixth [Street] and Central, and—
Tyler
Is this the fifties? Forties? Thirties?
King
Forties, early forties. My dad ultimately stopped managing the hotel and opened up his own business, of course with my granduncle [James Nelson]'s full blessings, who did own the hotel. I mean, we were that type of a family. We always wanted to see people move ahead and prosper and those kinds of things. So, it was that I was doing things on a fairly random basis, and Lawrence Lamar lived in the hotel, and—
Tyler
This is the Dunbar.
King
In the Dunbar.
Tyler
This is the forties, fifties.
King
We're into the fifties now. He lived in the Dunbar, and I had ultimately moved my office to the corner of the Dunbar in 1957, and, of course, he turned out and used the address and a PO box that he had, you know, for his operation, which was Negro Press Bureau. And from time to time he would send out a release on me, and one day we chatted, and I said, "Look, I'd like to have a national release once a month, but only based upon the things that I do. I don't want anything created, no false images out there. But I just want somebody to record and to send out
Tyler
Why?
King
Well, first of all, I feel that the best type of PR, of public relations, should be around building the things that you in fact do and publicizing those, and not the creation of an image that does not exist.
Tyler
I mean, that's the way you felt then.
King
I feel the same way now. Nothing goes out about me that is not really a reflection of what I do.
Tyler
What I'm trying to get at, why did you make a decision to do that? What were you driving at? What were your goals or intentions?
King
My goal or intention basically was to continue to build my business. I wanted to build it by creating an imagery and elevating the imagery of, basically, bail agents. Bail agents' images were not going to opening night at the light opera. Well, I did that, okay? Fine, it was not going to national parks with your kids, but I did those kinds of things. It was certainly not being involved in philanthropic activities, walking door to door, even at that point, getting small contributions from other business people, and I wanted that kind of projection, only. It was to elevate the image of the business that I was in. I saw there a situation which I knew that the image was not being properly portrayed, and I certainly
Tyler
But, now, didn't you sort of merge in some cases with the sports and stuff, or sort of a flamboyant image?
King
Well—
Tyler
I don't say that positively or negatively. I'm just sort of thinking, you know, you had some experience with entertainers, and people would know here comes Lena Horne or here comes Cab Calloway. [laughter] I'm wondering if you were using some entertainer tactics here [laughter] or, for example, what's-his-name with his airplane.
King
Jimmie Lunceford
Tyler
Yeah, because Cab Calloway used to send his car, his big flashy car by train, so as soon as he hit town, he started rolling in town. Everybody [would] know he was on the scene. So I was sort of wondering if some of it had rubbed off on you. [laughter]
King
I really had not thought of it so much in that way because I still had an understanding that entertainers were doing it for the reason of money too. So that flamboyance that most of them were doing, you know, had something to do with their ability to draw ticket sales, and I saw it to some extent the same way. But likewise, when I would go
Just a matter of organization and persistence.
King
We did it on a consistent basis; every other week Lawrence's pieces would go. Writing about Los Angeles, writing about California is interesting to people in New Orleans, various parts of Mississippi, all over. Now, how did that pay off? Okay, I can give you some examples that are just unbelievable. Take families who have left Louisiana, but their ties have never left Louisiana, and they still subscribe to the Louisiana Weekly. When they pick up the Louisiana Weekly and they see the picture in there and the cutlines of someone here in Los Angeles, you would be surprised how the affinity occurs: that all of a sudden the thing that they think most of, "Why here's a black guy in Los Angeles being publicized in Louisiana." Now, that moves your esteem one notch higher, and when some kind of business comes along, and I am in a business and I do want to make a dollar, those people will call me. I can be in the local press every week, fifty-two weeks a year, and it won't ring a bell with them, but if they're from Louisiana, and there's an article in Louisiana— And sometimes we spent a little extra time and we'd tailor something. I mentioned that particular one, but I guess the most significant one is that we sent out a news release nationally with my picture and all that, and we sent it to the black paper in Houston, Texas. It was run on the front
Tyler
Really?
King
Half a page. We almost fell out on the floor.
Tyler
Oh, you would also buy all of the papers that—
King
We used to have a clipping service that dealt with all the black papers across the country, and the clipping service would forward all the things back in that they would pick up.
Tyler
Well, of course, too, you know that Louisiana and Texas have the highest percentage of black migrants to Southern California.
King
And the reaction was great. I received calls from all over [the] Los Angeles black community when I was on the front page. You've got a lot of people out here that are from Houston or from wherever, and they want to keep up with what's going on. For years I used to take the Chicago Defender. When I say I, I mean my family. We took the Chicago Defender. We had all left there, but we always took the Chicago Defender. Of course, there are Chicago clubs out here, Dallas clubs, Saint Louis clubs, and those people all try to keep a little bit of linkage of what's going on.
Tyler
Back home.
King
Yeah. It has paid major dividends, and it has caused me probably to be the best-known bondsman in
Tyler
Now, you achieved some national recognition for civil rights people who were bonded by you when they were in the South, right?
King
Well, I worked out a scheme, and it was a scheme, and nobody else was able to do it but me. In the sixties I was involved with a company called Wabash Fire and Insurance Company—Wabash Fire and Casualty Insurance Company. That company has long since disappeared. They
Tyler
This was Chicago based?
King
Indianapolis, Indiana. And we had a national situation where, if I wanted a bond posted in Miami, Florida, or Pennsylvania or Washington, D.C., I could call into the home office, and the home office would direct the person in that area who was my counterpart, who was in charge of the state, to post that bond, okay? Now, the bondsmen in most parts of the South had a gentlemen's agreement that they would leave these radicals in, as they called them.
Tyler
They didn't want to bond them?
King
They would not bond them.
Tyler
Black or white bondsmen.
King
That is correct.
Tyler
Why?
King
Well, first of all, all the black bondsmen worked for white bondsmen. They were basically runners. Well, because it wasn't in their self-interest in the area. Number one, the mores of their community said, "Hey, look,
Tyler
You bonded the Muslims in the shoot-out, April '62.
King
And the reason that I was able to do that is because I was vice president, and I was the, in effect, the chief executive officer in the state of the company I was doing business with. So there was no one who could tell me that I couldn't do it. That was not true with the other companies.
Tyler
For the tape, this was the April 27, 1962, LAPD [Los Angeles Police Department] raid on the Black Muslim mosque and shoot-out—
King
At Fifty-eighth [Street] and Broadway.
Tyler
So you posted bond. Did the police threaten you for posting the bond?
King
I was told by so many people until it was unbelievable—
Tyler
To stay away from that?
Well, I was told that I would not be posting any more bonds in this town. The entire basic structure of this town— And understand the mayor was a personal friend of mine; the mayor had been to my house twenty times.
Tyler
Is this [Samuel W.] Yorty?
King
Yeah, and also the prior mayor, [Norris] Poulson, but the whole thing was that I had control of every bond that was posted in this state. Well, people generally can investigate and check out things, but no one ever bothered to check that out; they just assumed that there were restraints. And there was this general gentlemen's agreement that they were antiwhite, that they were anti-Los Angeles and antieverything that you could think was being painted on them. The truth of the matter is that they really weren't. And I've heard Sam Yorty say—
Tyler
You're talking about the Black Muslims then.
King
I've heard Sam Yorty say, and this was sort of at a private get-together of all the people that were city commissioners under him, and this was just six months ago, that it really was a police-provoked situation, as he viewed it now, looking back.
Tyler
With the Muslims?
King
Yes.
Tyler
And he happened to bring that up—
King
Oh, he's exonerated them.
At this late date?
King
Oh, he had done it before. But I mean just six months ago, he mentioned it again.
Tyler
What about this bail bonds business in the South again? We were on that.
King
Okay, what happened was I devised a scheme where I would not be involved in it at all, and it would be a situation of the company requesting these bondsmen in the South to post the bonds. Now, if I had called them direct, even though I knew them all direct because we all had similar kinds of positions, there is no way in the world that they would have touched those things. But their whole livelihood was based upon a certain type of an operation with other bondsmen throughout the country, based on the insurance company being the headquarters and the insurance company directing you to post the bonds. And you posted these bonds without liability; you weren't guaranteeing the people would show up. I'm talking about the local posting agents, say, in the South. So we had a situation I decided to try to model. I called in a number of folks, and we talked about it. And I said, "Well, I got to be sure I'm with one of the groups that I know will show up for court," and that kind of situation. So I worked it out and I found the model group, made the call to the Midwest, and the Midwest gave them the names and told them to get them out
Tyler
And had to go back to court, where some people could skip out of town and maybe not show up again.
King
But the local people lived there, and they were a part of the scene, and they did go back, and there were— In fact, most of the cases ultimately got dismissed, because they would break down the system; they would get so many people in jail until the system couldn't deal with them. So they'd slap them on the wrist and let them out and say, "All right, now don't you all do that anymore."
Tyler
So you were saying, before you intervened then in the civil rights movement in the South, they could not get bonds.
King
They weren't getting any help. But once I broke the bubble, and that was the whole scheme, that was the
Tyler
In other words, it was an economically competitive thing, that here's business, why not use it, no matter what the politics?
King
Absolutely.
Tyler
Someone had to break that gentlemen's agreement.
King
And I broke it by using all whites involved: white folk in the Middle West calling white folk in the South and saying, "Hey, here's a bond to post." And when you get a bond to post and you're dealing with your major insurance company that causes you to make a very good living, you're going to go post that bond.
Tyler
In other words, they're getting pressure from the top, not from the bottom now. Unless they want to get out of the business.
King
And it was, why would they go? They had great opportunities there; they were making a good living. Somebody would be in charge of an entire state, and they weren't about to give those dollars up, that relationship. Now, there was no such thing as saying no to the company. The company tells you to do something, and they're going to
Tyler
That's insubordination.
King
That isn't insubordination, that's suicide. I mean, they're going to pay you your fee to go out and do something, where you don't have any liability on it, you don't even have to see the people. Just go write the bond and leave.
Tyler
I mean, it's like bypassing a thousand dollar bill on the ground.
King
Or whatever size the bill happened to be. But that broke it, that broke it.
Tyler
And that's a major contribution that you probably have not been particularly recognized for?
King
It's been mentioned many, many times.
Tyler
It has?
King
In fact, in 1964, CORE [the Congress of Racial Equality] had a rally at the, on Jefferson [Boulevard]— What's the name of the place on Jefferson over here, the large building that's over here? The Shrine Auditorium. And they had like five thousand people present. They made one award.
Tyler
When was this?
King
Nineteen sixty-four. At that time, awards were not a dime a dozen, and the award was significant. They didn't
Tyler
Was that award for that, or what?
King
Yes, it was to a large extent for having broken that monopoly that was going on and [having] broken that cycle of every black having to stay in jail or put up full cash. NAACP, to a large extent, was getting out, was borrowing money from people across the country who were in effect putting it in a trust fund, and they were having to cash the people out. Well, they were going to break the movement. You can't afford to cash the people out, because the resources would ultimately dry up, so by this situation—
Tyler
Not only that, some squabbles were coming up over some people being bailed out and others not.
King
Yeah, but that was the choice that the NAACP was making, and, of course, they were raising the money and they were providing the lawyers to fight the cases, so, you know, that was their choice. And you had people who, on principle, would decide simply to stay in.
Tyler
Now, what year was this bubble burst? 'Sixty-one? 'Sixty?
King
Well, really, I found out and discovered that I had
Tyler
Do you still have those letters?
King
No, they didn't mean anything to me then. They didn't mean anything to me then. I get letters all the time, you know.
Tyler
Yeah, you—
King
Some good, some bad.
Tyler
—have a warehouse full.
King
But a lot of complaints went in, there were a lot of complaints. There must have been a hundred letters that
Tyler
I was trying to get to the year. 'Sixty-two? 'Sixty-three?
King
I guess we're talking about '62, '63, '64. I can't really pinpoint exactly when we put that thing together.
Tyler
But it would be roughly before '65.
King
Oh, well before '65.
Tyler
Anywhere between 1960 and 1965, right? I would imagine.
King
I would say it was before the March on Washington [for Jobs and Freedom]; that was '63, wasn't it?
Tyler
Yeah, August '63.
King
It was before the March on Washington.
Tyler
Because '60, '61, '62 or '63 were the big freedom rides.
King
Yeah, it was clearly before then. It's hard for me to identify, except that it was after the movement situation in terms of time, and that was '62. Probably right after that.
Well, I guess we better shift to another— But that's fascinating, because ultimately that activity of promoting yourself across the country had a business impact here, and then the civil rights affairs tied you in, and you had a bail bond effect, a very important one, a tremendous one there.
King
Yeah. No doubt about it.
Tyler
And you did have some vision that, you know, you had visions that this sort of thing, in one way or another, some benefits would come from that.
King
I felt it would crack the bubble, yeah. I knew that they weren't going to stand by and watch their competitor walk across the street and post those bonds, because you see they didn't know why the competitor was posting them. The competitor was not posting them because he wanted to, but because they had to.
Tyler
The other factor was that despite that specific incident that came up, that even prior to that you had already had an understanding that your local business would be impacted from people who would be here or living in other states. You would have the name recognition, and certainly in the civil rights movements, it's one of the major payoffs or benefits that you had.
King
Yeah, absolutely, I was aware of that, and I knew that it would occur, and it did occur, it did occur. I've
Tyler
It's rare.
King
You are not going to be able to count to thirty-three.
Tyler
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, what were some of the other peer experiences you had with your group?
King
I've got to wrap.
Tyler
Oh, okay, we've gone a little bit beyond time. Okay, we'll stop here.
Tape Number: VI, Side One
June 1, 1985
Tyler
Well, we left off last time talking about some of the peer group influences that impacted upon you, and left off asking [about] any other impacts or important peer group influences that would affect your life then and even later, and, of course, you had talked at length about some of the influences of the group.
King
I need you just to assist me in refreshing my memory a little more.
Tyler
Okay.
King
A number of events have occurred in the last week.
Tyler
Okay, one of the things we talked about was that you had a car you got at fifteen and a half or so, and you would go from one school group to a neighborhood group and go to different parties, because you moved between different peer groups. Later in life, of course, your political and business career allowed you to mobilize and not necessarily get overly identified or stuck with one group, and you just mentioned that there were individuals that were, whether it was Jackie Robinson or the football player—
King
Kenny Washington.
Tyler
—Kenny Washington, that all of you sort of naturally assumed that you were going to be successful,
King
Right, there—
Tyler
So other than that, I was saying were there any other particular incidents that became crucial in terms of, say, sometimes people choose a career, or they got to go into the navy or military, and some of their peer groups, you know, they say, "Well, we got to do this as partners or friends," in that sort of direction. In your case, I guess your family or even your own decision determined what you were going to do. Some people that influenced you like the airplane pilot and musician [Jimmie Lunceford] played a big role in your eventually going into the air force or The Air Corps, the military Air Corps.
King
I now can pick up pretty well from back at that point. I guess I should mention the fact that one of the influencing factors was a pool hall that I used to go to on occasion. I had learned to play pool quite well at the YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association], and, of course,
Tyler
Bernard Johnson?
King
No, the man who owned it was named Johnson, and it was right across the street from a place where I used to work as a kid, at the gas station.
Tyler
Do you recall that location?
King
Forty-third [Street] and South Central Avenue. And frequently on occasion I would go over to the pool hall, and I was a little bit too young to get in, but nobody seemed to notice, and I would go in, and we would put up small amounts of money, which back in those days I guess weren't so small, but we played for a quarter and other kind of things, and fifty cents on some occasions, and on weekends or something like that if people happened to have money, they'd play for as high as a dollar. You got to remember that was a lot of money in my day.
Tyler
You're talking about when?
King
I'm talking about a time when I was—yeah, it was clearly in the very, very early forties, maybe 1940, '41, along about that time. And I would go in, and in effect what I was doing was, I was taking on the best that they had to offer in there, and I would go in and I would— We
Tyler
And socialize with them.
King
There was a certain amount of socialization that arises out of any type of a spirited encounter. Whether it be on the track field or whether it be baseball or football or whatever, there's a certain amount of socialization that comes out of those situations, but they never could figure out how I could play so well. And I was probably the youngest person that was in there, and I'd walk in there, win some money, and then leave, and that went on for several years. And again, they always tended to underestimate me because of the age factor, but what they didn't realize was that I had played pool for hours on end, week after week after week, again, at the YMCA, and the only difference was the environment. And I found that to be a very valuable lesson, too, that you have to learn to be
Tyler
How was that valuable from that group? I mean, how did you use that elsewhere, or what type of lesson in a practical way? Could you give an example?
King
Oh yeah, first of all, it established very clearly that I could compete with those people that were supposed to be experts and supposed to be good and supposed to be the hip group as such, that I could compete with them, and that just because of the fact that they came from a so-called hip group, that it did not mean that they had extraordinary skills. And rarely did you find the situation where the twain met on those kinds of occasions. I mean, these were just two completely different oriented and directed groups, so I found that, you know, hey, I can function anyplace; it does not really matter. The thing that I must learn to do, though, is simply not to become embedded into the total kind of agenda that other folks may have, that, fine, they can go their route and I will go mine, and that, fine, there is nothing wrong at all. In fact, it might be desirable to climb up and down the ladder if you want to look at a ladder being vertical. I don't really look at the ladder as such, but only use it for purposes of other people's perception. But I have found that people to a large extent, if you try, you can get
Tyler
That's when you were expelled or kicked out from the regular schools; it was an all-boys school, the next step to juvenile hall or jail.
King
That was about where it was. Well, those were the kind of guys that were to some extent hanging around the pool hall. I mean, you never found most of the regular guys. I found an ability to be able to step in and step out of those environments, and it had no personal impact on me whatsoever, because—
Tyler
They never got resentful or tried to ostracize you or anything?
King
Not at all, not at all. I've always been, I guess, which you'd [have] to put in quotes, "sort of a regular guy," but with an agenda, that's all. I never really immersed myself into anybody's agenda that I did not feel was pro-active in a positive way. When it got the other way, well, hey, I just dropped a ball and said, "Hey, this game's over for me, and I'll see you later." And it works
Tyler
To shift back to the Dunbar Hotel, could you talk a bit about the division of labor or duties at the [hotel]? You know, how each family member did and what was the consequence or significance about that. Some of the experiences surrounding the Dunbar jobs.
King
The hotel was always a first and a second and a third job for every member of the family, depending upon what else they had to do. There was always this commitment to serve the entity, because the entity itself was so significant as far as a discussion point for the future of blacks, in particular on the West Coast, but actually looking all across America. Many of the discussions that went on at the hotel level were very important. Now, there were always people that were coming to the hotel that were there for purposes of delivering papers. It was the elitest of the black, as far as the educators were concerned, and, of course, in many instances that was the place and the area where whatever it was that they were going to do would occur. The Elks Club was close, the Masons were close, most of the facilities where blacks would congregate, recognizing the many, many limitations that were out there. So one of the things that we had to do, for instance, was to relate to the people who came
Tyler
The black tap dancers.
King
Right, and it was just tossed over to me that one of the things that I should do was to just sort of go around with them so that I could give them some direction about the town and other kinds of things. And at that time they had a limo, and limos were virtually unknown in terms of blacks having many limos, but it was up to me to show them the area, and, fine, I did. The area as I knew the area. Which was just fine; it worked out just great. There were other young folk—
Tyler
What did you do? Just show them the physical, just drive them around, show them things? Did you go to cafes, clubs?
King
Well, we went out to a couple of the beaches, Santa Monica, where swimming was available, down to Long Beach, where the rides and other kinds of things were.
Tyler
Was it called the New Pike then?
King
I think it was; that was the name of it. Generally to introduce them to some of my peer group that was, you know, in the community; they were very young, and so was I at that time.
Tyler
About how old were they? Fifteen? Sixteen then?
King
Probably just about the same age as I was, and that
Tyler
Could you name some of those people and how you—
King
I'm trying to think of a young mathematician out of Chicago. I can't remember that young man's name to save my life. He graduated from the University of Chicago when he was sixteen years old or something like that. Oh god, he was one of the— And [I] met with him, and he was just as ordinary as anyone else. The only thing is that he could add. [laughter] He was into the theory of relativity and all those kind of things, and we were both trying to make our way through algebra, most of us were trying to make our
Tyler
Then, what was the benefit of that at Tuskegee? What did that mean in terms of he teaching and you being a student there?
King
Well, I think one of the things that it made me concern myself with was the need for formal education. Formal education, then, I began to give more consideration to at that particular point. Here's a person who has gone through this formal education, and he really didn't seem a lot different than the rest of us, except that he had a greater ability to concentrate on the things that he was doing. And I thought that concentration, then, was something that arose out of that, and I said, "Hey, look, if somebody else can do these things, I can do them as well or better." So the fact that he was at genius level simply meant to me that he had greater concentration on what it was that he had to do. I just felt that I could do whatever the task happened to be, that I'd be able to concentrate on it and I'd be able to complete it. Later
Tyler
Now, did you not have a commitment yourself or your family that you had expected to go to college, or did you have some other perception about what you were going to do?
King
Well—
Tyler
Just say, this gave you a greater or a whole new perception about formal training?
King
I think that I was divided in one sense, that I felt that I wanted to go into business, and I hadn't really given much thought about what business it would be. Because I've always felt I'd look around and see what the opportunity might be in order to survive, but that I definitely just wanted to go into business on my own. I've always felt that was the way you make a living, and formalized education was always important in that you
Tyler
You had a very practical approach to education, as a tool, something you could use right away.
King
Absolutely. I wanted to be able to use it the same
Tyler
Would you say you had pretty much an apprenticeship approach to life, that you were actually with the hotel, pretty much working and having experiences that were competing with the formal approach to education, going whole hog for the degree?
King
Yes.
Tyler
Actually, did the war disrupt your educational process if you [had gone] right after high school?
King
Well, I guess the war did interrupt it, but the war was real, and everybody had to begin to think in those kinds of terms. I mean, it wasn't the kind of situation that you could disregard. You had no choice but to think about it. Now, you may think that, hey, "I would not like to be involved in the war"; you may think, "I would like to be involved," or at what level and other kind of situations. I've always kind of felt that you could be on top and you could also be popular too. There were a lot of people who used to run around saying, "Well, I don't want to be an officer, because if I'm an officer that'll take me away from the regular people that are there." Well, I've always felt, hey, you can be at the top and—if there is such a thing as top—but, anyway, you can be at one end of a scale, and you can still relate all up and down that scale to whatever extent that you choose.
What kind of people would say that? Some of your peer people?
King
Yeah, a lot of people would say they wouldn't want to be officers, that they would rather be—
Tyler
You mean your peer-group people, associates, or people after you got there?
King
Recognizing that I was moving in a business circle and with the youngsters coming out that had business parents and all the whole gamut, I was pretty well covered. And there were a lot of people who simply just said, "Well, look, I don't want to be an officer. I don't want to have that kind of responsibility," and other things. And, of course, it was always the situation of officers giving the commands and being supposedly not able to fraternize, you know, with other folks. Of course, I found out when I became an officer that they had a lot of levels and tiers in that. You still weren't associating with that many people above; there was nothing sacrosanct about being a second lieutenant, for instance, and there wasn't anybody listening to you above you or below you.
Tyler
Were there any racial factors involved in that type of attitude?
King
Well, you know, there again, I came into a fixed situation. I mean, the racist situation was out there. It was there. I made up my mind I was going to do what I
Tyler
Was this for black officers, the hazing?
King
These were just upperclassmen.
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
Rarely did you even get a shot at being far enough away from the group so an officer could get to you. It was the upperclassmen that were doing it. But again, as I say, it was only a short time before I had endured and I became an upperclassman. So fine, there was a good learning experience out of the hazing situation. You know, it became necessary— For instance, we were down at Tuskegee and a friend of mine that I had grown up [with] in this town, [S.] Wendell Green, was an upperclassman of mine, and Wendell used to always tell me, "Look, I'm going to protect you from everyone." And his perception of protection was to put me under the table while he would eat his lunch or breakfast or dinner, and I would stay under the table until he had finished, and then he would say, "Okay, you can come out." [laughter]
Tyler
Tell me this, were you drafted, or you joined?
King
I volunteered.
Tyler
Was there any particular reason you volunteered? To avoid anything? Or why did you volunteer?
King
Well, it was inevitable, of course, that everybody
Tyler
What, then?
King
Then, you got to remember that the air force went through its process too; it was first with the Signal Corps, then with the army, and then ultimately emerged, so the army itself had always—not always, but for a long period of time—had been involved as far as flying was concerned. And, of course, they had the little, small aircraft, which were used for observation. With me at that particular point, I just wanted to be a pilot. You know, I looked at those smaller aircraft, and I said, "Well, the smaller aircraft are fine, but there is no school that is available to send blacks," and everything was segregated at that point, so I had to go for the Tuskegee route.
Tyler
And that was attached—was that air force, or was that Army Air Corps, or what?
It started out army air force and ultimately ended up air force. Started out Army Air Corps, and then it moved to its own separation.
Tyler
By the end of the war?
King
Oh, yeah, by the end of the war. During the war it moved to its own separate entity. From our standpoint, we just knew what that really meant; it meant that the politics at the top, that the air force would have a better shot at the allocation of dollars and other kinds of things, because, of course, you know, in the services, there is always, like everyplace else, there is competition for the dollar, and the more dollars that you are able to get, the better [the] aircraft, the better the training.
Tyler
Did the war present an opportunity for you to fly that you think you never would have had otherwise?
King
It was the only opportunity that I would have had to be able to fly at that kind of a level. For instance, back in those days, it used to cost [in] the neighborhood of twenty-five thousand dollars for them to send a person through flying school.
Tyler
Twenty-five thousand dollars?
King
Yeah, now today it may very well be half a million, but the rolling stock that they were using at that time was comparatively small. But when you recognize that, you know, schools like USC [University of Southern California]
And the answer is no, there would have been no way for me to have had the flying experience that I had. Of course, later when I got in, I recognized that the way to go was to be hopeful that I would be able to get into the twin-engine section, because I wanted to be able to deal with multiple engines. I was very competitive. I mean, whatever was the toughest, seemed to me has always attracted me. I mean, I guess I like to win, but I guess I like the tough battles. And if it isn't really challenging, and even carry with it certain risk overtones and other kinds of things, I generally kind of pass on it. I mean, I just like the tough ones. I get a real thrill out of winning, and losing doesn't bother me.
Tyler
Why? Because you're going to try again? Now, what did you actually do in the war? Where were you stationed? Where did you go? What were your experiences?
King
Well—
Tyler
And observations, I guess.
King
The first thirteen months were spent in the training program. We spent a month going to sort of get ourselves in shape, and that was in Biloxi, Mississippi, which is
A big washout rate?
King
Oh, yeah, tremendous.
Tyler
What would be the main washout reasons?
King
I think the main washout reason was that people did not learn a skill fast enough. You had to learn within the time frame of the air force. Many, many instances: a person, if they had just been given a couple of more hours in terms of training, would have been able to survive and would have ended up graduating as a pilot, but they give you X number of minutes to learn a maneuver. If you don't learn that maneuver timely, you've had it. Technically, they were required to give three opportunities. You first failed with your own instructor, and then you would be given two other opportunities. But I can remember sometimes when the third opportunity would come up, the only thing they would do would be to take off and land, and that would be it. So actually, you really had one chance to win, and if you ever got on that down spiral, you could pretty well pack your bags.
Now, the rate of washout in those classes is generally determined by the number of people that start out in the class, meaning into the flying school, and the number of people you end up with that graduate. The reality is that it's really more like twice that number, because they wash out a lot of people before they ever get off the ground.
I know that, when I went in, I was fairly political at that particular point. The class elected its own officers (they weren't appointed), and I was elected by my class because I had campaigned for it, and I was elected adjutant, which was the number two spot. It was kind of interesting, because I don't think people were really that political back in those days. They were always looking for the person that somebody else had acknowledged, meaning if they had athletic abilities and other kinds of things, and they had been making the school paper, or they played on the basketball team. Well, I didn't do any of those things; I was just political.
Tyler
Political in what sense?
Political in the sense that I knew that I needed a certain number of votes to become either the adjutant— I wanted to be up at the top of the class as far as class activities were concerned, so when I ran I came out second, and I became the adjutant of the class. This was out of the sixty-two people or so that we had; I was number two at that particular point. In terms of being elected, you had a cadet captain. Now, later on, during that period of time, I was knocked down from cadet captain—I'm sorry, from cadet adjutant—which really meant that I controlled half of the class. It was divided into a morning and an afternoon; one group went to the flight line in the morning, the other one went to school, and then they reversed in the afternoon, and they put me in charge then. However, at one point along the line, I got demoted and thrown back to a private inside of the class, and that wasn't too unusual, because it was almost done at the whim of individuals. This was done because of the fact that I had an automobile down there and my automobile had been seen driving around in town. [There] was not technically anything wrong with it, because we were on our honor-type situation and we could pretty well go and come as long as we did the right kind of things. But they had certain days for blacks to go into the town, and I was in the town on a day when it wasn't the black day, in a sense. And, of
Tyler
Now, were the cadets there outraged about the segregation and the town conditions? Did any incident occur that caused some upheaval or potential problems, or actual?
King
Not a lot of them, given that the Tuskegee influence, the rewards were so great and the possibilities clear down there, until people were pretty well on an upward-bound mobility approach. And just to think, for
The second thing is all those things were fixed; they were fixed in that blacks had been exposed to segregation all their lives, and we knew that there were a lot of things that were changing that had not changed. In fact, we were in a change atmosphere itself, because blacks had never flown aircraft for the armed services. So we kind of felt that, hey, look, if we go out and we do well, then we will be a model, and this will help everything.
Tyler
So you saw yourselves as the vanguard.
King
Clearly.
Tyler
That you had more opportunities than disabilities, would you say?
King
We had nothing but opportunities and very few disabilities. You really didn't have a lot of time to get involved in too many other things. Your time was really very, very heavily consumed.
Tyler
So you certainly didn't feel imposed on?
King
No.
Tyler
Wendell Green felt imposed on, your colleague. I've heard that he railed against the segregation army. So he didn't seem to take to it very well.
Wendell and I came off the same splinter, and I did too, but not while I was going through cadet school. You cannot; you don't have a sufficient amount of discretionary time when you're going through cadet school. He actually began to show those things; he showed them before he went into the service, and he showed them after he became an officer. But when he went through as a cadet, you don't have time to engage in all of those things unless you simply want to self-sacrifice. So Wendell, I would say, clearly was one of the brightest persons that I have ever known, and we have been very, very close friends. We have not always been on the same side of issues, but we are still friends after all of these years.
Tyler
Were you aware that A. Philip Randolph and his march on Washington movement protested black exclusion from war-plant jobs, a segregated military? Were you aware of that, or had any reactions to that?
King
We certainly were, and we favored those kind of changes at almost all levels. There is a real plus that we had going in the earlier years, and that is that we had a fellow by the name of Judge Hastie who was our advocate.
Tyler
William [H.] Hastie, right?
King
Right.
Tyler
Actually, he was an assistant to the war department, Newton D. Baker.
Okay, right.
Tyler
But, anyway, he eventually resigned.
Tape Number: VI, Side Two
June 1, 1985
King
Well, Hastie was our advocate in that he had been— He was without question one of the finest black Americans who ever lived. He was a person who was a brilliant advocate, and ultimately he did resign from his position, because he was unable to move us more into the mainstream. I think that if he made any mistakes at all in his life, and that is that he should not have resigned, because after he resigned, we picked up a fellow out of Chicago (and I think Hastie was from Chicago, too), we picked up a guy out of Chicago—
Tyler
I think he was from Florida.
King
No, he was from Chicago. His father was president of an insurance company there.
Tyler
Oh, okay, whatever.
King
He ultimately went into boxing afterwards; he was a boxer promoter after the war. But, anyway, he was not treated with the same level of respect that Hastie was, and I don't know that his commitment was any less, but his effectiveness and his voice—it was Truman [K.] Gibson [Jr.]—was not felt at our level. This is nothing personal against Truman, but he was a young lawyer at that time out of Chicago.
Tyler
Just personality and ability or whatever it is.
Yeah, and he was just not able to effectively cause anything; well, maybe, "anything" is an overstatement, but from where I was, my perception was that there were no eloquent arguments that were done on our behalf; the result was basically inactivity.
Tyler
When did Hastie resign? `Forty-three? [`Forty-] four?
King
Probably in '44. Yeah, probably in the latter part of '44 is when he resigned. Not that Truman Gibson was not a nice guy and a brilliant fellow in his own way, but maybe it had just hardened to a point where there was no opportunity for him, you know, and—
Tyler
Hastie, that's why he resigned; he couldn't get any more response. There were about five thousand black pilots in World War II, right?
King
Nine hundred ninety-two.
Tyler
That was the grand total?
King
That was the total who went through the program.
Tyler
But I mean around the whole country, during the whole war, weren't there about five thousand black pilots?
King
Nine hundred ninety-two.
Tyler
Was the maximum.
King
That was the number of graduates that there were during World War II.
Tyler
So just one thousand, which was actually a very
King
Yes, and forty years later, as we sit here, I just received a note from a friend of mine, Clovis Jones, who used to fly for one of the airlines here on the coast.
Tyler
Was his name Close?
King
Clovis Jones.
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
Clovis was a pilot with, let's see, you got, not PSA, Western, and what's the other, Cal, one of the airlines that flies up and down the coast.
Tyler
California, I don't know. [Air California]
King
Well, they advertise quite a bit, but I guess their advertising isn't effective. [laughter] But, anyway, the national black pilots, commercial pilots, are having their meeting in I think it's Memphis, Tennessee, and they want to present an acknowledgement award to some of the Tuskegee airmen, and he gave me a call and then formalized it by writing a letter. Today, out of forty-four thousand commercial pilots actively making a living—I better underline that, a good living as pilots—there are only 250 blacks, and this is forty years after the noble experiment in connection with black pilots, where supposedly we crushed the idea that blacks cannot fly. So I'm not too sure how much progress we're making, or how you want to
Tyler
What about the military now, you have no idea?
King
The idea of pilots in the military, I don't have an answer on. I think I will try to find out where we are on that.
Tyler
I guess we could write the war department.
King
Well, I should be able to get the answer with one phone call. I'm still a little bit active in the military.
Tyler
So that that group, as you said, had a very vanguard attitude and positive attitude about that. Were there other experiences that you had— I mean, where were you ultimately stationed? Did you go into combat? What happened to most of the Tuskegee people? What did they do?
King
Well, initially, of course, there was the very famed Ninety-ninth pursuit squadron.
Tyler
Were you part of that?
King
No, no, that was the first group that went through, and a squadron's a very, very small entity. Like, for instance, I think the first class that went through Tuskegee, five people graduated.
Tyler
That's all?
King
They were brutal on them.
Tyler
Now, the instructors were white and everything, right?
Yes.
Tyler
Was there ever any suspicion that there were conscious plots to limit the black graduates?
King
I think that, although an unusual situation occurred, I think that first it was just, "Let us sit these blacks down here: they don't have it, they can't do it, but let's put this program together in Tuskegee." And then they set about turning it over to some different people who said, "Well, we're going to make it really, really tough on blacks, and we're going to eliminate every one that we possibly can," which, when you analyze it, if you eliminate almost every one that you can, what you have left are the strong and the pure at heart and the best. And they set up a screening system, so what they were doing was, as they screened all these folks out, the people that got through were absolutely the top of the line. You could get washed out for anything; I mean, I imagine if you had dirt under your fingernails. So they got the best in terms of academic abilities, they got the best— This is no disparity now on other people, but of those who applied, they just screened them out. It was even difficult to get into the air-force kind of situation and become a prospect. You had to take a written examination in your hometown in order to—or not necessarily your hometown, but wherever they were giving it, which was generally the
Tyler
Now, did you have the same flying equipment as whites, or did you have inferior, or normative flying machines?
King
It was the same as theirs. No difference in the machines; all the planes were the same planes. Now, different places would have different planes, but, by and large, you would have to say that the planes that we were flying were about the same as the other planes. We had the old P-40's initially, when they would graduate, and ultimately they went up from P-40's to P-39's to P-47's, and then ultimately to the very famed Mustang. So they flew equipment that was reasonable, given the light of the circumstances. The P-40, of course, was a tough one to fly, but, nevertheless, that was the number one plane at the beginning of the war. That was the plane they used to fly over China, those kinds of things.
Tyler
So where did you go when you finished school, and most of the other people? Where did you serve?
As I mentioned, the 99th was the first group, and then after that they put together a group that was the 332d. Now the 332d was a group; a group consists of four of the squadrons, and that meant they had to put three more together, and then the 99th, and ultimately that made up the 332d fighter group. They also decided that it was a good idea to come up with composite groups; composite group was a theory that was put together in the air force, and that meant that it would have some bombers, some medium bombers, and fighters, so that they could work together as an integral unit. And they would be more effective when they had to go out, rather than bring two groups together, the fighters over here and the bombers over here, to make them composite groups.
So the idea was to put together a composite group—it was called the 477th—and that composite group required then that they have some twin-engine medium bomber pilots. We didn't have any particular control over whether or not we would be bomber pilots or be fighter pilots, but I decided there was more commercial advantage to being a bomber pilot. One of the criterias that they used was height, because, at that time they were flying, fighters were kind of small and cramped up, so that the taller you were—there's a lot more room inside of, say, B-25's than there was in a P-39; [in a] P-39, you were really just
Tyler
That was Major Field, you said?
King
Mather. That threw me back into California, and we had a ten-week training program in Sacramento. I went through that period up there with virtually no difficulty as far as flying was concerned. One of the reasons is that I just believed in heavy, heavy concentration. I can remember that we would get weathered in two or three mornings a week, and, instead of sitting around playing checkers or whatever when the fog was down low and we couldn't take off, or when it was raining, I would go out and sit in the B-25's and blindfold myself and have someone simply read off the instruments to me, and I would just reach out and touch the instruments. Now, in those days,
Tyler
Now, did you ever, during the war, go overseas, or were you ultimately stationed here?
King
Okay, we— Well, let me mention one incident that really fired me back up into, I guess, the rights movement again. I knew I was doing a good job, and I knew that I was a good pilot and a good member of the armed services. One morning I was in the mess hall, the officers' mess hall at Mather Field, and General [Ralph P.] Cousins came by (and, by the way, at that point I had only seen one general in my life, and that was B. [Benjamin] O. Davis, Sr., who came down to visit his son [Benjamin O. Davis, Jr.] at Tuskegee), and I was very, very just pleased and elated that I was even going to be in a room where General Cousins was going to be. I was there, and I had my breakfast, and the general made a few remarks, you know.
The following day I was called into the commanding officers' section, and they sat me down, and I was told that General Cousins had left an order that no blacks were to eat in the officers' mess hall. Well, I had to think about that just a little bit. It bothered me almost more
Tyler
Plus, you were just so respectful towards him.
King
Never met him personally. He saw me in the mess hall. I never even had an opportunity to shake his hands or to do the salute, nothing, and I was an officer, and I just didn't believe that it was going to happen. I just couldn't conceive that that had happened, but I got the message, and from there through the balance of that ten weeks (I guess we were about two-thirds of the way through it), every morning for breakfast, those black officers that were up there that were pilots, we had to go to the PX [post exchange], and they would send one person to the PX early and then—this is Sacramento, California, 1944; in fact, May of 1944—and there we were with our officers' uniforms on, generally getting ready into flying uniforms, standing at the side of the post exchange, while they would hand breakfast out to us. And the realization then hit me squarely that something had to be done to improve this society, because after accomplishing everything that they said that blacks could not accomplish, it simply did not mean enough that we could not even as much sit down in the same mess hall and eat. And it was not the officers who were there, not the other people taking the training; to them it was a nonissue. I mean, we had achieved something;
Tyler
You still maintained discipline, though, didn't you?
King
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. If discipline became the key factor, you know, I mean, we could get violations and be brought in for summary situations about flying, you know: you're flying too low, you stayed out too long, you came in too hot on the runway, you know, all those kinds of things, which was like a coaching kind of situation. But as far as basic discipline was concerned, yes, no problem
Tyler
So what was the consequence of the training at Mather Field? Where did you go on from there?
King
Well, it made me, in effect, an accredited, established pilot of B-25's; we had checked out, I've forgotten how many hours we did on them, but it was quite a few. We stayed there for this two-months-plus period of time, so my level of competency was there. Then, we, of course, didn't have enough pilots at that particular point to really put the group together, but there was need for us, and we knew that there was need for us, but, politically, the decision had been made not to have black units and white units flying together. So then, you know, months would go by, and they had overseas training programs. We went to Fort Knox to a field that was at Fort Knox; it was a World War I fighter field—very, very short runway. It was called Godman Field [Godman Air Force Base]. Godman Field was not designed for aircraft as large as B-25's; it was designed for small fighter craft, and that was the place they decided to put us. It didn't do a single thing, except sharpen us up even more. I mean, I can remember days when I would work in the tower. You'd have one day every period of time, maybe like once a month you'd be the officer in charge and you'd be responsible for the tower and everything, and I would go up in the tower and I'd
Tyler
So certainly they were trying to provoke you; they certainly were trying to limit the success or whatever of pilots.
King
And all it did was make them sharper; that's the only thing that it did.
Tyler
So how long did you stay there in Fort Knox?
King
We stayed around Louisville for a number of months, and I guess what they finally figured was, well, that field was really not made for these medium bombers, and besides
Tyler
Was this still training?
King
Well, you see, they weren't sending us overseas, even though we were ready—
Tyler
Because they couldn't put a group together?
King
I think it was basically because of the fact that the original concept was to put a composite group together, number one. But, number two, even though there was a need and they could have broken that bubble and used these competent pilots, it would have meant integration.
Tyler
So they'd rather not; they just had you going from field to field, training or whatever.
King
I went through the overseas training program three times. Any ordinary white pilot that had gone through overseas training once would have been on their way overseas. Three times. Now, ultimately, they sent pilots in who had been second pilots flying B-25's in the Pacific, and they would send them in because they had done their tour of duty over there. They'd send them back to the States, and these pilots then would be assigned to go and work with people taking the overseas training program.
Tyler
Because they would not rotate you overseas for combat.
King
That is correct.
Tyler
So then after the war, when the war ended, did people remain in those units, or were they dispersed, or were you demobilized, or what?
King
Well, when the war was over, first came, of course, the situation in Europe, and then we were just pretty convinced that there was going to be a good possibility that we'd be able to get a chance to show our wares, you know. And, of course, as that diminished, and then there was going to be this major transfer that was going to go to the Pacific, well, we figured with all of our guys coming back that we would end up, you know, being able to get out and sort of do our combat number. I really don't know of many black pilots who at any time voiced any opposition to
Tyler
[laughter] You train to go at it.
King
That is—
Tyler
But they did that with the ground soldiers. They kept them out of fighting; they got them into construction or fortifications or unloading supplies—who were trained for combat—and they just did it on ground and air, terribly wasteful. Anyway.
King
The problems that occurred as a result of some of that segregation were very serious in terms of the overtones.
Tyler
What were they?
King
Well, I think the fact that at one time there were roughly a hundred black officers under arrest, which is the largest group of officers in the history of this country that have ever been under arrest at one time, and it was all about going in a white officers' club. I mean, it was absolutely nothing, and what had happened was, we just no longer were going to take it, and that was it, and fine—
Tyler
So wait a minute, is it that towards the end of the war that black morale—you know, this was just too much?
Well, I think black morale was falling, no question about it, it was falling; the opportunity for advancement was extremely restricted. I think by the time the war was over in the European and African theaters, I think it was perfectly clear that there was not a big future as far as the air force was concerned with blacks.
One of the moves that I made was to go up to Chicago, which was only a couple of hundred miles from where we were stationed, and there I went to and applied for my commercial license, because I was thinking of commercial overtones, you know, after the war was over. I did go in, I did take the examination. I passed the examination, which was very, very simple for me, because it was basically about the regulatory situations, and because I was a pilot and because of the fact that I was flying on a frequent basis, I did not have to take any actual flying situations. All I had to do was to take the written, and I picked up a commercial pilot's license. A number of other people, and I kind of led the way on that situation, I said, "Hey, look, go in and take it now, because they are not requiring you to do any flying." Of course, any of these people would have passed the flying too. We did it as a vocation on a daily basis, but I picked up that commercial ticket. Of course, the ticket was never worth the paper that it was written on, because there were no
Tyler
Why?
King
They did not use blacks as commercial pilots. There were no blacks in America that were flying people; there were none that I knew of that were even flying freight. They simply would not use black pilots.
Tyler
So then what happened with this group? Were they able to stay into these units, stay into the Air Corps, or air force, or did they have to demobilize and became reservers or inactive or what?
King
They did demobilize, and, of course, that applied to all units after the war, or just generally across the board. And what happened with our group was people went on back—and most were young—a lot of them went back to finish their education. A number of them did; some became quite renowned: there was Bumps Coleman, William T. Coleman, Jr. You may have heard of him, out of Philadelphia. He was the secretary of transportation under Ford, and that was President [Gerald R.] Ford, but today he works for Ford. He works for Ford Motor Company as chief counsel. He went on back to Harvard [University], finished his education, now, one of the guys.
Tyler
So, none or hardly any of those guys were able to stay flying militarily or commercially? [tape recorder off]
Of course, when the war was over, well, most of the people just went on back to wherever they had come from to try to put their lives together and make it work. I guess you could just mention person after person who was successful. A few stayed in, but the majority of them came out of the air force. There was no future in the air force for most. There was for a very few.
Tyler
Was it clear that you weren't welcome to stay?
King
Well, it was pretty clear that the war was over, that there wasn't much for an air force pilot to do at that particular point but to go out and deal with the rest of your life. The opportunity for going into the reserves, of course, was always there and available, but basically with white or black, it was that the war was over, and that basically you have been civilian soldiers, and now, hey—
Tyler
Now, did the whites flood at the commercial lines, and [it] was highly competitive, and they were going to exclude because they didn't need all of them, or what? Or do a lot of pilots not want to fly anymore after that?
King
It was just a matter of the fact that there were more white pilots, I guess, than there were jobs available, too, and, in addition the color line was just clear. I mean, in order to get the first commercial pilot, it took a lawsuit, and if my recollection is correct, that lawsuit was eventually filed in Denver against Continental
Tyler
Let alone a pilot.
King
No, there was no room in there for them, period.
Tyler
So you went into the reserves?
King
No.
Tyler
Or you automatically were in the reserves?
King
No, I just came out completely. I gave serious consideration to going in the reserves.
Tyler
So later then, you got into the California National Guard, or is that—
King
Later, I got into the California State Military Reserve, which is a part of and is controlled by the same adjutant general, meaning the commanding general that is over the National Guard is also over the State Military Reserve. So it is sort of a spin-off. In fact, at one time it was called something like the National Guard reserves. They ultimately, the people involved in the Military Reserve, wanted to have a little clearer
Tyler
In the colonial period, militia was a common word. Late in the nineteenth century, twentieth century, the National Guard—
King
It's somewhat of a National Guard reserve. The National Guard is called in on a function, and we somewhat replace the National Guard, so it's interesting, and it does have all the military overtones, but it's basically a volunteer-type organization. We have basically the same profile person that the National Guard has. Make it analagous, let us say, to a police reserve unit, and, of course, you really have some difficulty telling the difference between the policemen and the police reserves, because they are all riding in the same car, etc., and one is designed to assist the other. By example, and this is kind of jumping ahead, but I'll go back, during the Olympics, I was asked to perform certain functions, which I did, and this is really jumping maybe too far ahead, but the National Guard gave me an award at the end of the Olympics for my participation. I was quite pleased about that, of course.
Tyler
Now, what did you do after the war? Come back to
King
Came directly back to Los Angeles and started trying to pick up some direction. I think one of the things that I made a mistake doing was trying to do too many things in too short a period of time, and, ultimately, I found that there are reasonable limits in terms of what you can do.
Tyler
What did you come back trying to do?
King
Well, I wanted the perfect everything. I wanted the perfect family to fall into place quickly. I wanted the perfect kind of a life-style, given what could be done. I wanted to pursue occupations that would make dollars for me, and I wanted to complete my schooling; and I had a whole list, a whole laundry list of accomplishments that I wanted to put together very quickly. I soon was able to sort those out, though, and to begin to pick up a reasonable program of what's real and what's workable, and you have to sit down and make some planning.
Tyler
So what did you do on a practical level? You came home. Did you pursue a job? Did you go and get married, or what?
King
I was already married and had one son [Celestus A. IV, "Mike," King]. In fact, he was born on the day that I soloed when I was down at Tuskegee. So there again, from my standpoint, was an opportunity for me to be able to show that I had the kind of discipline that was necessary, so
Tyler
How did she get into that?
King
We had a retail store, and one of the things that we sold retail was records.
Tyler
Where was this retail store at? What was the name of it?
King
It was simply a part of our liquor store. My dad [Celestus A. King, Jr.] was in the liquor business, and he had a liquor store in sort of the fringe of downtown Los Angeles, and part of it was selling records. Well, records in those days could be extremely popular, and you had to have connections and all those kinds of things to get the records, and my family had always been very well connected, pretty well at most of the levels; so, since they had the records, the jukebox thing simply became an extension of the records, and because we had all the linkage, we had them in a number of the black businesses.
Tyler
Would you say [what] you or [what] your mother did was responsible for jukeboxes spreading to black L.A.?
King
There were other people, of course, that were in the business too, and it took some financing and other things.
Tyler
Were these all black-patronized places, if not black-owned places, that you placed the boxes?
Tape Number: VII, Side One
June 27, 1985
Tyler
Okay, the last question on the tape was, when you sold these jukeboxes, were they predominately sold to black businesses, or places, or establishments that catered to black patrons?
King
I guess probably 90 percent of the places that I was doing business with were black owned, small entrepreneurs. There were restaurants. There were small stores. There were pool halls. They had these little donut shops, the hamburger spots. The bars, some of the bars were beer and wine places, and others were cocktail lounges. There was a considerable difference in the amount of the investment required between a wine and beer license and a cocktail, and generally the level of people that they drew, generally, was slightly different, because it cost a lot of money to involve yourself around the cocktail lounges and very little around the beer and wine. Generally, the beer and wine establishments yielded more in terms of the jukebox than the more elegantly put together cocktail lounge places.
Tyler
Why is that?
King
Well, I didn't really look at it from any sociological standpoint during those years, but I guess it was more of an outlet, it was more of a basic— Most of the
In addition, of course, there were some places that had live music, and, of course, they had the jukeboxes there, and that meant that the jukebox was always off whenever the live music was on. And they generally had most of their clientele at night, so they didn't get the long daytime exposure and action. We had a deal basically at most of those places that was like a fifty-fifty split. But, of course, competition began to get heavy, and that affected two things: it affected the quality, it affected the year, the model, of the jukebox itself. Actually, the state of the art was not moving particularly fast, but the designs were changing, so it was a matter of keeping up with the latest designs, and the more elegant places always wanted the latest jukebox. They all generally worked fairly well in terms of the money going in and the slots being fairly easy to repair, but it did take
Tyler
But the kind of hourly, nightly, or whatever call, you might get—
King
Yeah, it just got to the point where it didn't bother me in the least. I just felt compelled to do whatever it was that I had to do. I did, when I came back, I went over to USC [University of Southern California] and—going back now a year or so prior to the jukebox beginning to make a good living for me—I went—
Tyler
The jukebox business then?
King
Yeah, I made a very good living.
Tyler
At what age were you now?
King
I guess I was about twenty-one, twenty-two.
Tyler
Were you living independent?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
When did you move out of your parents' home?
When I went into the air force, I was, oh, about nineteen years old, maybe almost nineteen, maybe a little under that, maybe still eighteen. But that was when I moved out. I moved out as a practical matter when I went in the air force, and, of course, I never moved back into our family sort of homestead. But that was when I moved out. I enjoyed coming back, of course, after the air force days, and I was very happy that my mother [Leontyne Butler King] had started this jukebox route, because it put me in a position where I was able to earn whatever I could put out. I worked that jukebox route alone; I did not have any employees whatsoever.
Tyler
By choice, or what?
King
It was just a compelling need I think that I had to survive and to make it, and I just didn't feel that I needed anyone. I believe very much in working, and I worked from early in the morning until in the evening, and then go home, and then if I had any calls, out I would go. Now, when I went over to USC and I signed in to start school there, I think I probably made one slight error and that was that I had not fully adjusted myself. I just hadn't been here long enough swinging out of the air force. I probably should have waited one semester, but I wanted to get in at the very beginning, which was in the fall. I, at one point, had the situation of working and
So I had too many things to do at that point: you know, getting the jukeboxes in order, continuing to service the program. I had to learn the mechanisms, so it was like school itself, except that I was not on the campus, but I was learning a considerable amount. I was learning how to handle these machines, and I simply did not want to pay anyone. So, fine, I learned them and I learned them well. Now, at a later point, I decided that I would go into the bail bond business, and in order to do that, well, it meant that I had to reprogram out my time, so I went to a night school and began that long, simple working all day and going to school at night. I found it much more comfortable than trying to attend a day school. The day school was just very difficult for me to handle. These machines and jukeboxes, you had to go and take the money out during the day; you could not go to these places and take money out at night, so it was imperative that I had most of my day free.
Tyler
Was that for safety reasons?
King
Well, number one, it was custom as far as the industry is concerned, and, number two, I think that there was a safety factor, but a safety factor is nothing like it
Tyler
Right, right, I would agree. I remember in the fifties here in L.A., my father and I went to an open trailer, or truck, and the payroll man was on the truck paying people coming to get their money. Couldn't do that now.
King
[laughter] Just handing them a piece of paper called a check would be a risk.
Tyler
Oh, cash money, payroll man right here in L.A. on a truck, just sitting there all day. You know how construction companies have trailers right on the premises to handle business and all that?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Those days are long gone.
King
That's absolutely right, and they probably, now that I think about it, I can remember those days, they didn't have security; there was no one there, except the people that were patronizing the truck, just no one there.
Tyler
You remember that?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
Payroll trucks?
King
Yeah. Do it on the spot.
Tyler
What school did you go to? Well, no, you were talking about some other school you went to for bail bonds.
Well, I received an opportunity to work part-time for Dave Finley. Dave Finley was one of the early bail agents in Los Angeles, probably the, maybe the second or third or fourth black bondsman that they had in the Los Angeles area. The two that preceded him were no longer around.
Tyler
Do you recall who they were?
King
One was a fellow by the name of Murray—
Tyler
Oh, bail bondsman Murray.
King
And there was another—
Tyler
He goes back to the thirties.
King
Yeah, and there was one other guy, and his nickname was Mex; he had a Mexican appearance, and he was out of the business when I began to get involved in it. So those were the two I think that had preceded Dave Finley.
Tyler
Was his name Garcia?
King
I really don't know what Mex's name was. I just remember him as Mex, and I did know him because when I was a kid, he used to hang around the Dunbar Hotel. So it put me at a point where probably I was maybe like the, oh, sixth or seventh black that had been in the business. Most of those who had been in this business had not done that well. They had not been particularly successful in the business.
Tyler
Why was that?
Well, first of all, most of the blacks did not have what are called direct contracts. Direct contract is a contract with the insurance company or with the general agent, so, since they were really sort of subagents of agents, it meant that there was not a lot of margin in the bonds that they were handling, so they had to pay so much money in order to have the insurance company paper, because there were just too many hands between them and the source, until they were just unable to be competitive. In addition, there was a very prevalent attitude in the community that those were the people, if you had a real problem [and] you had to hire a bond, that they would be the people that would be in a position to write the larger bonds. And it meant that, basically, the black bondsmen—or bail agents, more correctly, because at one time there was a woman who had an agency, even back in those early days— It just turned out that it wasn't that profitable, because they were simply paying too much for the paper. When I came in—
Tyler
What years are you talking about now?
King
Well—
Tyler
Early fifties?
King
I started in the latter part of '48, and I think I was licensed in 1949. I worked for two and a half years for Dave Finley on a part-time basis, and during that
Tyler
You liquidated it by just giving the route to someone, or selling the route, or just dropped it, or what?
King
I sold it on an individual basis. I sold the units, and sometimes I sold the units and the locations. I reduced it down to a smaller number where I had a very simple kind of a working situation, so it meant that I could do a little bit on the jukeboxes. I spent some time in school, and I worked some time part-time for Dave Finley. So with that kind of a combination, I was able to put a pretty good balance act together, and it worked out just fine. I decided that I needed to stay in school, and I needed to pick up a bachelor's, and I needed to learn a little bit more about the activities that I was involved in.
I ultimately graduated in June of 1951 from Pacific Coast University. It was a law school, and it was a four-year night program that you could finish in less than four years if you went all year, and I simply went all year. At that time, you got a bachelor's degree in law, and that was what I did. I signed up for a course, and I ended up with an LL.B., which was a Baccalaureate of Laws. By the way, today that same degree is called a J.D., which is a Doctor of Jurisprudence. In fact, at a later date some years later, when the codes had been changed and when
Tyler
They wanted that graduate degree.
King
They wanted a doctorate, okay, so that's one reason they changed it to Doctor of Jurisprudence. In fact—
Tyler
That used to be an honorary degree, because I recall with Charles H. Matthews, he graduated from UC [University of California] Berkeley in what, 1923, '22, and I think he had J.D. on his diploma because he was first in his class when the bachelor was the norm. But, anyway.
King
You know, that was one of the oddities, because as
Tyler
Can you get a full Ph.D. in law?
King
No.
Tyler
It's either the J.D. or the master's, huh?
King
In most cases it's just the J.D.. That's about what 90 percent, 99 percent—
Tyler
Because I would imagine the professors who teach law are just the top students, right? Or graduates?
King
Well, there are an awful lot of lawyers who teach in law school who are part-timers, and it is very important that they be part-timers, because you need the practitioner who is keeping up with the state of what is going on outside, inside the classroom to some extent. In other words, they have to be both scholars and they have to have some understanding of what's going on out there in the real world, so it has contributed to a point where you got an awful lot of lawyers who are part-time practioners.
Tyler
Well, anyway, you were at this Pacific Coast law school, and you went through in the three years?
King
I think it was about three years, slightly plus on
Tyler
Oh, really.
King
—when they attained number one. In addition—
Tyler
Is it accredited?
King
It is accredited now, yes.
Tyler
But it used not to be.
King
It was not.
Tyler
Yeah, most accreditation goes with the staff, type of ranks the staff have, right? Then it passes the accreditation bureau.
King
And entry level requirements are a factor too. Most
Tyler
Just as long as you pass the bar is the real question and have some training.
King
That is correct. You become an attorney when you pass the bar, you are a lawyer when you finish law school. And there have been a lot of very fine people who have come out of this small school. In fact, the present chief justice of the United States Supreme Court [Warren E. Burger] attended a night school some place up in Wisconsin, or Minnesota, or someplace up there [Saint Paul College of Law, Saint Paul, Minnesota]. You've got an awful lot of people who've decided that, you know, that that's the way to go. And I am very pleased that I put the time in; in putting that time in, it did bring me up to a point where I certainly had a much better understanding.
Tyler
So you did graduate, you finished, graduated from there.
King
Oh yeah, I graduated in June of 1951.
Tyler
Now, what was your motivation to go to law school?
King
It was really to learn more about the contracts that I would be involved in, how to effectively understand the legal process and the complete pretrial release system, criminal law from an overall standpoint, and it was
Tyler
Now, did Dave Finley or anyone advise you to do this, or you came to this conclusion on your own?
King
Oh, I made the decision on my own.
Tyler
So at about twenty-one, twenty-two, then, you made a decision that bail bondsman would be your life's career, almost?
King
Yeah—
Tyler
It was going to be the serious thing you were going to do. Had you thought about doing something else in the time that you got out and then went and took over this jukebox route? Had you flirted or dabbled in anything else?
King
No. I made up my mind that I was going to be in the bail bond business.
Tyler
How long had you thought about that?
King
Well, I had this just strong desire to want to help people. And somehow, it seemed to me that this was the opportunity to be able to help people, because the idea of getting out of jail as far as our community was concerned, was that when you got somebody out of jail, you were helping them. And also, I saw the other side of that coin,
Tyler
Now, was there any particular reason why you had developed this urge to help people? Was there any particular experience or observation that you focused in on that occurred that you can remember that was a real turning point or an eye-opener for you about what you wanted to do, and why you felt that way?
King
Well, I liked the idea of being able to have an income seven days a week, that I was not confined to making a living five days a week, and I also liked the idea of having a cash business, so that there would be the constant cash flow, and it just simply attracted me from that kind of standpoint. I worked many, many hours, but I guess I developed the workaholic approach. I don't feel any particular adverse effect from working long hours; it doesn't bother me in the least.
Tyler
Do you have a lot of energy?
King
I don't know that I have high points in energy, but rarely does my energy run out. But it is that I do things on a fairly consistent basis, a fairly steady basis, and I just go on and on and on. I guess one of my favorite
Tyler
That's the car, Porsche? They keep on running.
King
They keep on running, right. And they get across the finish line. I have enjoyed working. I certainly don't count hours, not at all, not in the least.
Tyler
Now, how did you go ahead and establish yourself as a bail bondsman after you finished law school? You were working in Dave Finley's office. How did you eventually branch off into your independent operation?
King
Well, Dave and I had talked about it for a long time, and, in fact, he helped me in terms of getting started. He wasn't too enthusiastic about it at the early stages, because I was doing such a great job for him.
Tyler
In terms of what?
King
In terms of handling night work. We'd have to get up sometimes in the middle of the night and go post a bond. Well, I had taken a considerable amount of weight off of him, and he wasn't particularly happy about the idea initially, but he did help me thereafter when it became perfectly clear, that, hey, we would simply work together even though I would have a separate office. My dad [Celestus A. King, Jr.] had a building that was next door to the liquor store that was on the fringe of downtown, and we were forced into remodeling the building, simply because
Tyler
Was that because of city authorities or housing authorities, or you just said, "Well, it's deteriorating, let's do something"?
King
Well, it's kind of a combination, but we pretty well did it on our own. There were requirements that were out there in terms of bringing things up to code, but there wasn't any big push by the city in terms of bringing these things up to code, because a lot of the buildings were very old that were near the skid row area, and they just had to have these places for people to live, so they only put a limited amount of pressure on the owners. We were interested in making our entire front look better, so Pop put a new front on this building. The building was recessed back about a dozen feet, so it made it just fine; they were able to put a new front on. It was an old frame building, but when we finished with the front on it, it was right up with a good contemporary design, and it blended into the liquor store building that was next door.
Tyler
Was the rebuilding costly?
King
It was costly, but it was financed, so there was a way of amortizing it over a good period of time. But it was a considerable amount of money at that time. But it was the way my dad wanted to do things, and that was to
Tyler
This is his liquor store.
King
Yeah, so it was a nice-looking front all the way across. There was a barbershop on one side and that was leased out, and on the other side was an office, so I took the office there and started operating the business out of the office. It was not the most convenient place, but I took the position that, hey, this is what I have; I will do the best that I can with it. As time went on, it became very good in terms of a location, because I created it as a location, by dealing with my clients. In fact, I used to have a little situation where the clients would have to come by the office in many cases, rather than me doing the paperwork at the time, and all that was designed to let people know where I was and to get to my office. So, as time went on, that worked out quite well.
Tyler
In other words, you made the location work. Rather than the location push you up, you pushed it.
King
That was exactly what I had to do. It worked out just fine, took—
Tyler
Now, what was the address, can you recall, or actually the street?
King
Yes, the liquor store was 911 East Sixth Street and
Tyler
Are those particular buildings still standing?
King
The one where my office was located, which was a wooden building, has been knocked down for a parking lot, but the brick building where the liquor store was is still there. My dad sold the liquor store probably—well, he sold the liquor store itself in 1957, and then at a later point, probably about 1970 or so, he sold the building itself. The building is still there.
Tyler
Any particular reason he sold out? Because he rebuilt the place and then sold out within five or six years, right?
King
Well, he was in the business for sixteen years, and he rebuilt the place about 1950, and when he ultimately sold it it was twenty years later. But, let's see. It was—he was in business longer than, I'm thinking—'50, '57. That's about right, '41 to '57, and when he sold it out, well, he had gotten good use out of the premises. He went in, and, of course, he had to end up buying the building, you know, and he ultimately paid it off. And then he sold the building because he was simply no longer involved there. The purpose of having a building, a commercial building, in many cases if you have a small business, is so that you can maintain control of that particular piece of turf. I mean, it may cost you just as
Tyler
In what way?
King
Well, whenever you sell the premises, you generally have got to a point where the value has been enhanced and gone up, number one. And number two, if you're using it for your own business, you're at a point where you will have gotten the best years out of that particular building and location. And then when you sell it, you generally are selling it at a time when you may have retired or something along that line, so you're selling it at a time when your tax situation is such that what you bring in from it, you would have more of it left. On the other hand, if you rent or lease, when you decide to check out, that's it. It's a cash kind of an operation.
Tyler
We haven't really talked about that. Was there any special reason your father went into the liquor business in '41, because that's like three years after, or four years after the '38 move here? Was that part of the family expansion, or Nelson— Was it William Nelson?
King
James Nelson.
Tyler
James Nelson. Was that part of the business expansion or some plan that he had in mind, or was it— Well, because you said your father was going to manage the
King
Initially, there was an effort that was going to be made to put a liquor store right in the premises itself.
Tyler
Right in the Dunbar?
King
Yeah, in the Dunbar; however, it turned out that that place had been leased out, and—
Tyler
When you bought it?
King
The people came in there, I think, shortly after my uncle bought the place, and that was before we had moved to California, so it was already out and under lease. And, of course, we decided that there was no need to put those people out, just let them [stay], and my dad looked for another location. But he still spent a considerable amount of time with my uncle and around the hotel.
Tyler
Now, I guess to sort of shift back to the hotel, I understand they had a bar-club there, a barbershop was there. Was there an eating establishment there?
King
Oh, yeah, a well-renowned eating establishment there [Dunbar Grill]. In fact, I think the people who had that establishment when I first got here—a woman by the name of McPherson had it, and it was one of the places to go.
Tyler
She leased it?
King
Actually, it was she and her husband, but she was the principal one in the operation, and Mrs. McPherson did an incredible job there.
She leased it and then ran a restaurant there?
King
Right.
Tyler
Now, what were their backgrounds? Where did they learn their cooking trade or whatever?
King
I don't know. When I first saw them, they were cooking, and they did it quite well, so I—
Tyler
That was at the Dunbar?
King
That was at the Dunbar. Now, there was a bar next door to the grill, and that bar was owned by Mr. Lucius Lomax.
Tyler
That's in the Dunbar?
King
In the Dunbar Hotel.
Tyler
He owned it?
King
Well, he leased the space, and he owned the license, so, in a sense, yes, he owned the business, but he did not own the premises. He simply—
Tyler
He just had an independent operation, then.
King
Right, and one of sort of the places to go to get your hair cut, etc., was the Dunbar Hotel barbershop. A lot of discussions—
Tyler
Where Lucius Lomax [Sr.]—
King
Well, Lucius Lomax had the bar.
Tyler
Oh, the bar, I'm sorry, I'm getting confused.
King
And next door to that was the barbershop.
Tyler
Who ran that?
I think I can pull that out of my memory, because my dad used to get his hair cut there all the time, and I will remember the name of the owner of the barbershop. [Leroy Minter]
Tyler
Was it just one barber chair?
King
Oh, no, there were half a dozen barber chairs that were in there.
Tyler
So he had about six barbers cutting?
King
Oh yeah, and they were always loaded with business.
Tyler
Now, did they do processing?
King
Yes, back in those days, they did do processing.
Tyler
Was that the big attraction?
King
That was the big moneymaker for the barbers.
Tyler
Now, this is the fifties?
King
Oh, you're going—oh, okay, I'm going back down to—
Tyler
Late thirties, forties.
King
Late thirties, forties.
Tyler
No, that's fine, that's okay. I mean, that's actually what I meant. So that was the big— Do you remember how much the process cost in the late thirties or forties, early first half of the forties?
King
You know, I don't have the slightest recollection. Of course, it would be easy to find out, because some of the barbers are still here in Los Angeles—
Tyler
Oh, really?
—who used to either work there or one of the other shops that were around. One of the other shops across the street was quite well renowned. That was Spencer Brown. Spencer Brown was very, very well known as a barber.
Tyler
Was that because of the processes? Or just barber in general?
King
Barber in general, the processes, and sort of a guy around town, front row center, drove new automobiles all the time, which was in itself somewhat of a centerpiece of a lot of things. And he was a family friend, too, Spencer Brown. Kind of goes back to one thing. I spoke with him recently, and he has a picture that I gave him forty-plus years ago. When I was in the air force, they took a picture of me standing on the side of a wing of an aircraft—
Tyler
At Tuskegee [Institute]?
King
At Tuskegee.
Tyler
You don't have a copy?
King
My dad may have one. Other than that, the only one of these pictures that is still around is the one that Spencer Brown has.
Tyler
Well, you ought to get a copy.
King
He has suggested that I take it. He said he's not going to give me the original. [laughter] He said, "You can have all the copies made you want."
A copy would be just as well.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
But now, you were saying that the barbershop was very popular because of the conversations and the people that clustered there. Did a lot of entertainers, Hollywood people [come around]? Was it that approach, or what?
King
Black entertainers, basically, were there. All sorts of things happened around that facility. For instance, if you can remember Rochester [Eddie Anderson] who worked with Jack Benny. Jack Benny called down to the hotel, and they were really looking for a different person, and the guy wasn't there, and Rochester then went to the telephone, and from there on, and the guy became a millionaire, as a result, from working and playing the part of Rochester.
Tyler
Oh, Jack Benny called there looking for—
King
Someone to work with him on the show.
Tyler
Just one of the blacks?
King
He had a name, and I'll get the name of the guy he actually called for, and he wasn't there.
Tyler
So Rochester got on the phone.
King
Yeah, yeah, and talked with Jack Benny, and went out to Hollywood and—
Tape Number: VII, Side Two
June 27, 1985
Tyler
Did that establish any special relationship with Jack Benny and Rochester with the Dunbar?
King
Years ago, and was he looking for Johnny Taylor? And then Rochester happened to be standing out on the side of the building.
Barber
That's correct. He was looking for a boy named Johnny Taylor.
King
Yeah, okay, I thought it was Johnny, but—
Barber
Johnny Taylor was serving time in jail.
King
[laughter] That's right. He was in the county jail, wasn't he?
Barber
That's correct. That's why Rochester got the break. That's the guy who walked on to fame.
King
Okay, it was Johnny Taylor; I just wanted to be sure, because I couldn't remember.
Well, I guess we were somewhat talking about just some of the things that did occur that had lasting impact as far as that theatrical arena was concerned. And, of course, everybody who was involved in the theater from the black perspective at one time or another was sitting in that Dunbar Hotel lobby. It was sort of like a pickup point where, if you needed black artists, you could call there and you could generally find most of the entertainers
Tyler
When was that named? I've never heard of it.
King
It was named a few, oh, about probably 1980 or so, maybe even a little before then, and the location of it is near Cimarron [Street] and Thirty-seventh [Street], which is a few blocks west of Western Avenue.
Tyler
Cimarron and Thirty-seventh.
King
It's a cul-de-sac that goes up, and—
Tyler
Oh, yeah, that little round. I'm going to have to go check it out, yeah.
Now, I imagine it must have been the thirties and forties, unless it was the twenties, the black jazz musician— Oh, my goodness, I can't think of his name. He played a big role in organizing the black musicians union [Local 767, American Federation of Musicians] that was merged later with the white musicians union [Local 47, American Federation of Musicians] here in L.A. He's a big
King
Well, there was a black musicians union, and it was near Washington Boulevard and Central Avenue. Some of the people that were involved in it, one was a fellow named Baron Moorehead, and he was a trombone player and he had his own band at one time. He was one of the guys who used to go around to see to it that the musicians got paid and received a reasonable kind of compensation, because the clubs had a way of sometimes not taking care of all of their obligations. But that was understandable, too, because the times were difficult and it was hard to do.
Tyler
Was the Dunbar a hangout for many of these people, too?
King
Well, Baron Moorehead, who was one of the officials of the union, lived in the hotel, so he—
Tyler
Oh, really?
King
Yeah, he lived there year round for a number of years. He ultimately bought a house.
Tyler
So the Dunbar actually was not only temporary, but you could rent what amounted to what was an apartment; it was a hotel-apartment type situation.
King
No, it wasn't a hotel-apartment, but it had all of the total trappings of an apartment, because there was a grill downstairs, and food could be brought up. They had
Tyler
Now, did the Dunbar cause these clubs to come and cluster around the Dunbar, or was it the other way around? They all were there, or some of them were there and rose together, or opened about the same time, or what?
King
I think they clustered around the Dunbar, because the Dunbar, you know, tourism was always a major key, and when you had people that came in from out of town, well, the Dunbar always stayed full. You couldn't, without reservations, just couldn't get into the Dunbar, but because of the fact that there were so many visitors and things that were coming in from out of town, it meant that the extra tourist dollar was around. Also, it was the tallest building—probably between downtown as far as Central Avenue was concerned—probably the tallest building from there, maybe all the way to Long Beach. You're talking about a four-story building, which today you wouldn't even begin to count unless you had fifty stories
Tyler
There was a chorus line there?
King
Oh, yeah. Well, right next door.
Tyler
Is that the name of a club, the Chorus Line?
King
No, it was the Club Alabam, but they did have a chorus line, so that meant a lot of petite-looking, good-looking young ladies were around.
Tyler
How long did this chorus line last at the Club Alabam?
King
It must have lasted for a decade.
Tyler
Which was what era, from what time?
King
It must have lasted probably from, oh, the early thirties to the early forties.
Tyler
All the way up to the war?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
Was it still in operation in '45?
King
Ah, '45 it was a weekending kind of thing.
Tyler
Why?
King
Because just simply the nature of the community was growing, and additional facilities were beginning to rise. You had motels that were beginning to show in the
Tyler
Were these respectable and big and new, or were they old hotels, but they were still in pretty good shape by the standards of the time?
King
Yeah, they were old hotels, like the Morris Hotel that was on Fifth Street. Sammy Davis, Jr., used to live down there when he was a kid, he and his father and his uncle. They stopped there, and a number of other musicians, because then things were changing a little bit; black artists were beginning to appear more frequently at the Million Dollar Theatre and at the Paramount Theatre. The Paramount Theatre is no longer there. It was on Sixth [Street] and Hill Street. So there was a broadening of the community. There had been an influx of people that had come in during the war period; the defense job availability had attracted a number of people in, principally from the South, but a lot of them had more than just agrarian-type skills. They were coming in from the black colleges and beginning to kind of get a little bit involved in the city.
Tyler
Now, I recall that white musicians from downtown and from the Million Dollar and the Paramount and other clubs would come to the Club Alabam and, I guess, the
King
Well, there were a lot of after-hours spots that were around the Dunbar; the Dunbar itself didn't do the after-hours spot, but there were a lot of them that were sort of on the fringe of it. There was one—
Tyler
There was no after-hours activity at the Dunbar? It would be open, though? What, the bar would close at two and that was it?
King
Yeah, the bar would close at two; generally, the grill closed at the same time as the bar, and, of course, the lobby would be there, but there were after-hours spots that sprung up all around. There was one down on Forty-second Place that was only a couple blocks away, there was one across the street behind—
Tyler
Where they had the Club Alabam, the Memo, the Last Word, the Downbeat, Jack's Chicken in a Basket?
King
Yeah, those were the prominent clear clubs, then sort of like the after-hours spots. I'm having a little difficulty remembering places like Big Leg Chicken Place. It was mentioned the other day when we were talking about the—
Tyler
Oh yeah, another chicken, I can't remember—
King
It was upstairs, and a number of these after-hours spots began to spring up. That was after the basically normal bar activity. People still wanted somewhere to go,
Tyler
Oh, I know this. Benny Carter was the one I was trying to think of.
King
Benny Carter was a musician; he was around Central Avenue for a long period of time. He actually, though, was one of the first blacks to move into the Hollywood Hills, and he had a very beautiful home that was up there, sort of a cantilever type home.
Tyler
Cantilever?
King
Yeah, that sort of set out and was held up by stilts and those kinds of things. Beautiful view. I went to his home a number of times.
Tyler
Now, he made his money from his musicianship to afford that sort of home there?
King
Yes, yes.
Tyler
Was this the thirties, forties?
King
But he was also a writer, too. He wrote music and he was an arranger, in addition to having his band.
Tyler
With just black bands?
King
I think he was doing some arranging for whites, but, of course, his band was a black band, and it was a good band.
Oh yeah. I have a lot of his stuff. I was just surprised. I got the impression that blacks, too many of them, didn't make too much money to move in such an area.
King
Well, he was basically kind of a conservative guy. You could notice that all about him, but he was always a clean-cut guy, always very much a gentleman, but frugal in his own way.
Tyler
So it was sort of unlike the musicians who lived fast and made money fast and spent it fast, so they had nothing to show for it.
King
That was not a Carter—
Tyler
Right, right, right. That's what I'm saying.
King
Carter was a different breed.
Tyler
But now, to my knowledge, Benny Carter was one of the main blacks that organized or helped to join the black and white musicians union, and, if I recall correctly, that he was the connection between Central Avenue and Hollywood for black extras. I understand that from the twenties and thirties that the Hollywood studios maintained an office on Central Avenue to recruit black extras. Was that Benny Carter, or was that sort of loosely done? Would people call in to the Dunbar or to the black musicians union, or what?
King
I think it was a combination of things, but everybody identified the hotel as sort of the centerpiece
Tyler
So you actually don't recall any clearinghouse or an actual office that someone was manning for the Hollywood scene, the Hollywood cinema.
King
No, except that all the people that were involved in the cinema things were someplace within a few blocks of there. You could find them all every day, every night, unless they were out on location working, and there was no way of avoiding that situation. That was just the spot; nothing topped it. And a lot of the girls, when they were not working, would work over in the Club Alabam on the line, and that kind of thing.
Tyler
When a lot of girls weren't working at the Dunbar?
King
No, a lot of the girls who were working, say, in the
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
—that would get the extra shot here and there. You know, Lena Horne lived in the hotel for a period of time, and there was one woman who went on to some level of stardom to some extent—I think her name was Simmons, and I can't put the first name with it—but she became somewhat well-known for a period of time there. But Billie Holiday, of course, when she was in town, she lived at the hotel.
Tyler
Was this the forties, fifties?
King
Early forties, maybe late thirties. They were all there. Most of the doctors in the community would come through, the lawyers would all come through. It was sort of—
Tyler
Now, were all social classes welcome there, or came there, or did a certain type tend to come to the Dunbar?
King
Well, a few blocks down the street, you had one of the few places, if you go back to the late thirties and the early forties, one of the few places where blacks could have dances, and that was the Elks [Club] auditorium. The Elks was a large facility, large dance hall. So most of the large dances and those kind of things that occurred by the fraternal groups were generally held at the Elks auditorium. That too was, I think, a three-, four-story structure.
What street was that, Central and what?
King
About Fortieth [Street] and Central, almost at [Martin Luther] King [Jr.] Boulevard, what is now King Boulevard, which at that time was Santa Barbara Avenue. Later on, it became a mosque, and it has been for the last eight or ten years the place where the Muslims have their mosque. But that was the Elks, and it was a nice place. Adequate parking on the side. It was the place where most of the major dances occurred. So you had about a half-a-dozen-block area where most of the social activities took place, because there just were not that many other places that anyone could go. You certainly could not go into the white community because there was no open door policy there. The white community, a lot of whites, of course, came to Central Avenue during that period of time. It wasn't unusual just to see car after carload of them coming up at night and going to the various bars and bouncing from one to another. I guess kind of using the other phrase, it was a little Las Vegas in that area, and certainly would have been a mini— But, of course, Las Vegas, too, in 1939, was not what Las Vegas is in, you know—
Tyler
Today's time.
King
That's right, 1985—but they had the spots, and they were there, and they had the name singers, meaning name black singers, all the blues singers.
At the Dunbar?
King
No.
Tyler
I mean at the local clubs, at the local clubs.
King
At the local clubs.
Tyler
Now, as I was saying on the social question, in terms of the Dunbar, it was patronized by whites and blacks of all social categories?
King
Okay, whites and blacks came into the hotel. Now, whites did not stay at the hotel.
Tyler
Could they have stayed?
King
Oh, yes. Yeah. It did not matter to my uncle one way or the other.
Tyler
But they never would rent a room or stay overnight or anything?
King
Generally, they were staying in the white community, came over, would spend a few hours, and then would disappear back into the white community.
Tyler
So you never recall whites renting one room in the Dunbar?
King
Oh, yeah, there were occasional situations, but it was basically not a white or an integrated-type setting as far as the rooms in the hotel was concerned.
Tyler
Now, was it that they just never inquired, or they never wanted to, or the segregation pattern was such that it was something you just didn't really think about, you
King
Well, it was something that just simply was not done. In addition to the fact that it was not done, there was no particular need as far as the white community was concerned. They were able to resume their normal activities and go back over to where they, you know, wherever it was that they had come from. It was a Mecca, and it was really a tourist type of attraction to go there.
Tyler
Now, that actually lasted— Your family got the hotel in '38?
King
Nineteen thirty-six.
Tyler
`Thirty-six. So it right away was an attraction, the Dunbar?
King
Yes, what turned it back on, of course, was when the prohibition days were kind of awkward, and then when bars were legalized and other kinds of things, that's what kind of turned that community back on. Also, you had—
Tyler
You mean the Central Avenue?
King
Yeah, turned it back on. Now, because of the fact that there was such an acute depression, it took a little while for it to catch, but once it got going, it just continued to go, and it did quite well until integration began to show itself. Integration, of course, had an impact on every major black community in America, and certainly Central Avenue was no exception.
In what way?
King
Basically, when it got to the point where blacks could stop at other hotels that were more conveniently located to the activities that they had come to California to be involved in, if there were seminars or they were here to deliver a paper or something, generally those kinds of things would take place in the downtown community. When a black finally got to the point that he could stop at, say, the Biltmore [Hotel] or at one of the other hotels— Now we're going back long before the Hilton [Hotel] was built downtown, and you had the Clark Hotel that was downtown. Now, we used to kind of kid about that, that there was a white Clark and a black Clark Hotel, because the black Clark Hotel was at Washington and Central, and the white Clark, which was a much larger hotel, was located about the—
Tyler
Seventh [Street] or Eighth [Street] and Figueroa [Street]?
King
—the four hundred block of South Hill [Street].
Tyler
Oh, Hill, okay.
King
Very close to Fifth [Street] and Hill. So we used to kind of kid about that: people would say that they're stopping at the Clark. We'd say, "White or black?"
Tyler
Now, again, in terms of patronizing the Dunbar, people of all black social classes came in, right?
Oh, yeah, because they had friends that were stopping there, and they'd have to come over to pick them up, you know, and that kind of situation.
Tyler
So that would go from working class to black entertainers and professionals?
King
Working class basically didn't stop there, because the price was too high. And when I say the price was too high, I'm not talking about the kind of prices that we deal with today. I'm talking about a hotel that would charge ten dollars a day, you know, back in a time when, you know, you could get a hotel room at the lower echelon on the situation; you could get a good hotel room for five dollars a day, back in those days. But the Dunbar was a cut above, and because of the fact that they had a good deal of business, they were able to establish those kinds of rates. Now, they had some very low rates for the people who were permanents, and some of those people that were permanents, they wanted them there. I mentioned Baron Moorehead, for instance, who worked with the musicians union, and that meant that he himself generated a good deal of activity and concern. The hotel was about 50 to a 100 percent higher in terms of the accomodations than most of the other places were.
Tyler
Plus it was pretty nice by the standards of the day.
Yes.
Tyler
It is my understanding that it was well kept.
King
Yeah, it was one of the few— It was very well kept. My uncle had discretionary dollars, and he was in a position so that he didn't really have to depend on the hotel per se in order to make ends meet for him, even though the hotel was a good profit maker. But it takes sometimes capital investment to be put into a building, and he had the dollars in order to do that. So it was always just excellent.
Tyler
Now, when you opened in '36, when did the white patronizers start coming over?
King
Oh, just about that time, they were beginning to come to Central Avenue. I think that maybe it was kind of looked at like a little Harlem approach situation, a little like the Grand Terrace section that they had in Chicago at that time, and the Thirteenth and Vine type thing in Kansas City. So everyone had those kind of opportunities. I think that—
Tyler
Do you recall when white patronage fell away?
King
It began to fall away as integration began to move in.
Tyler
What year would—
King
Well, I would say it really began to fall off shortly after the war in terms of beginning, in terms of
Tyler
This is still the forties?
King
I'm having some trouble identifying the exact year, but all the black, big league baseball players—
Tyler
When they were with the integrated baseball teams?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Not the black league?
King
Not the black leagues.
Tyler
Oh, you must be talking about the fifties. Isn't that when that occurred? Jackie Robinson, the early fifties with the Brooklyn Dodgers, now the L.A. Dodgers?
King
Yeah, well, I'm going all the way up to that point. They attracted a considerable amount of attention.
Tyler
Coming to the Dunbar.
King
A lot of them used to stop at the Dunbar because they played at Wrigley Field. Wrigley Field was only four blocks west of the Dunbar, right on Forty-second Place. So they had that as an attraction. What happened was the black ballplayers used to barnstorm during the winter season, and they would all get together and they would go from town to town to town, and they'd hit Los Angeles, and
Tyler
Playing ball?
King
Playing ball. It's kind of hard for people to remember those days, but all the old names, all the major names, they'd do it every year.
Tyler
These are the black leagues, right?
King
No! This is when they were playing— This is prior to an open integration situation and when they were playing for the major leagues. They had several players out of Cleveland, several out of the Brooklyn Dodgers and the various other places where they were playing. They all got together, and they did a barnstorm every year after the regular season.
Tyler
Oh, but they would just be playing exhibition games, or what?
King
Exhibition games, yeah.
Tyler
For the black community?
King
Well, they drew black and white. They basically were playing sort of a black circuit.
Tyler
Oh, yeah. Maybe that was out of the old black league tradition, huh?
King
Yeah, same thing.
Tyler
Now, that didn't last too long, I imagine?
King
No, it only lasted for a few years. But it was a
Tyler
Because baseball by the late fifties was falling rapidly to black players. You know, they could go in more and more unhampered, I guess.
King
Right. I've got to cut off.
Tyler
Okay.
Tape Number: VIII, Side One
July 6, 1985
Tyler
Well, we still had been talking about the rise of the Dunbar Hotel and the rise of Central Avenue and some of the activities that occurred on Central Avenue. When did Central Avenue and the hotel start declining, and your notice of it or your family's notice of it?
King
Well, I think there were several factors that were involved, all of which tended to converge during the same period of time. The situation involving integration, which meant that whites were no longer as attracted to the Central Avenue area on one side, and blacks were attracted to a more openness and receptiveness on the part of business establishments to open. So you get this decrease in white business and decrease in black business and this then being closely followed by the tourist business, where basically tourism people that were coming in—blacks coming into Los Angeles, not being restricted and confined—began to stay in the integration opening places. Now, that meant a good deal of money that used to come, say, to Central Avenue and to Avalon [Boulevard] and to the basic South Central black area, was no longer being infused into that community.
Another variable that was influencing was the fact that the community itself was getting older, and it did not
There was a major move which took place by the Golden State [Mutual] Life Insurance Company. When they moved their headquarters from Central Avenue to Western Avenue, it was a major situation as far as the opening up of motels and a hotel that was on the Westside. So [the] opening up of businesses on Western which also creeped back, say, to, Normandie [Avenue] and a few—a very, very few, though—on Vermont [Avenue], and then a very few that were on Crenshaw [Boulevard]. You had arterial streets that were running east and west like Jefferson [Boulevard] that were beginning to hold out an attraction. And you had Adams Boulevard, too, that was holding out an attraction. And
Tyler
Are you talking about the forties and fifties, or what?
King
This occurred basically in the early, starting in the early fifties, and it just continued to spread like a very slow-moving situation, but ultimately [it] did right on through the fifties. By the time we got to the late fifties, there was a dispersement throughout the entire, extended area. Now, blacks were not opening up businesses on Wilshire Boulevard or in Hollywood or in the Beverly Hills or West L.A. districts, but they were expanding considerably, and it just took a lot of the attractiveness off of having people go to Central Avenue. At that time, the hotels were beginning to open up, so it meant that the Central Avenue facility that the Elks [Club] operated, which was called the Elks Hall, that there were other opportunities in other places where people could have their
Tyler
Did blacks take advantage of those activities to the point that they just totally neglected the old Central Avenue and Elks?
King
I would say, to a large degree, yes, that did occur. There were some reasons for it, and possibly Central Avenue simply just did not keep up with the pace, and then they did not make the effort to stay sort of in the mainstream of what was occurring. So you had this gradual erosion. Now, I had opened my bail bond agency next door to my dad's liquor store, which was on the fringe of skid row. We were on Sixth Street and about a hundred yards from Central Avenue, and I felt that it would be in my self-interest to move my office from Central Avenue and Sixth Street to the office at the Dunbar Hotel. We had an office, and it was available on the corner. It was very simple for me to make the move, so I made the move, and at the same time, I bought the bar license from Mr. Lucius
Tyler
Perris, California?
King
—do not mean Paris, France. [laughter] And a few were up in the Victorville area that had their ranches in the desert. So times were changing, and it was clear to anybody who was really looking at it.
Now, of course, my family had a nostalgic view about
Tyler
Was it paid off?
King
It was paid off except for taxes. There were inheritance taxes that were involved when my uncle [James Nelson] passed, but other than that, it was completely free and clear.
Tyler
When in the trust did you give up management of it?
King
No, no. We had the management of the situation, and this was a method to see to it that it would sort of stay in the family for a long period of time.
Tyler
This is the fifties now?
King
We're going back now— I think we put that trust
Tyler
The bail bonds?
King
Right, and also I operated the bar there. It was possible to continue to make it move, but the bar was profitable. But the hotel was not particularly profitable; it was very, very marginal, because we were losing the affluent traffic. In fact, we lost all the affluent traffic.
Tyler
So, did you have to lower your room rates?
King
The room rates were lowered, but not basically the quality of the service and other kind of things. There were still the bellhops that were available and those things, but I was—
Tyler
Did the clientele shift to another social type group, or whatever?
King
The clientele that we were dealing with—the Duke Ellington bands and the major people that were coming out—were beginning to stop in downtown hotels. And—
Tyler
Do you think you could have won them over through some kind of racial appeal, or business, or patriotic
King
We made a continuing effort, and when that situation was clear, we just simply opened it up, basically, and set up contracts with the railroad people. So that the railroad waiters and porters then came to our hotel by contract. And about 75 percent of the cost of the rooms were paid for by the railroad people, and they simply paid a difference out of their pocket. Now, there were hotels where they could stay in and not pay anything out of their pockets, but there were some who simply chose to come out into South Los Angeles. So our rate was still higher than the rate of the basic hotels where the railroad folk were coming in, but we put those contracts together, and it worked out fairly well for a long period of time. And I think—
Tyler
For how long, would you say?
King
Oh, it must have worked well for five, six, seven years.
Tyler
And this would be from the mid-fifties to what, '62 or something? ['Sixty]-three?
King
Yeah. And then there were new contracts with the railroads, and there was new competition that the railroads were facing. The biggest competition the railroads, of course, were facing was the private automobile. And it meant—
Of course, the red cars faced that too. [laughter]
King
[laughter] Yeah.
Tyler
Same time period.
King
The roads were getting better and a lot of people that were coming out from the east that were bringing families drove up. It made motels more attractive, and it also had the other impact. The other impact was very, very clear: it reduced the ridership on the trains. So it meant there was less use of porters.
Tyler
Were these Pullman porters?
King
Pullman porters and also people who worked as waiters. Quite a few waiters. But as their business began to go down, and the automobile began to move up—and, of course, there were the airplanes too, which were a factor as far as moving people back and forth was concerned. But it was not heavily the jet age as it is now, where you really had the mass element, but there was that situation. This was one of the major factors in stemming the situation. So it made the competition then for those contracts much more competitive. And in our case, we had a contract, but the men had to pay extra in order to stay at the Dunbar.
Tyler
At the time the attractions were declining.
King
There you are, now. So the numbers declined, the whole thing, and you looked up, and this train was knocked
Tyler
Now, was there ever any real concerted effort in the leaders to save Central Avenue, other than what you've just said? Or was there just sort of a resignation that "This is the way things go, and let's move with the flow"?
King
I think it was "Let's move with the flow" kind of a situation. But you had two things. One, the owners of the businesses that were on Central Avenue were not necessarily the big thrust of moving toward the Westside. There were new business people coming in; the population was increasing. And there were new opportunities for people to deal with small businesses. Basically, the newer people and a percentage of the old business people were beginning to establish businesses west of Main Street. And Broadway became sort of a new business street.
Tyler
Is that the Broadway-Manchester area?
King
No, the Broadway-Vernon [Avenue] area.
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
Broadway [Federal] Savings and Loan [Association] went there; several other financial kind of institutions were in the area. It was to be close to, of course, the
Tyler
You get this dispersement as you pointed out. Now, you've been suggesting clearly here that the black focus was a result of black businesses. What about white cluster business groups? Did they ever leave the domination of the cluster of black residents or the focus of black social cultural life, or business, or consumer life?
King
Well, the whites that owned businesses continued to own those businesses and continued basically to be the centerpiece as far as business was concerned. They owned and almost controlled with a death grip the key corners, the Vernon and Central, where the streetcar transfer there was a major point. Basically, white businessmen, which were basically, I guess you could say, in terms of ethnic background, basically, they were Jewish. And they related into the community. They participated in all the things; they had the furniture stores, they had—
Tyler
You're not talking about Nat Diamond['s Empire Furniture and Appliance Stores], are you? [laughter]
King
Nat Diamond; then there was Kunin Furniture store, the quality places. There was also one Asian who even,
Tyler
What, in terms of ads?
King
In terms of the money to get the printing done. They did not go way out of their way to influence what was said in those papers. But then, on the other hand, because of the fact that they carried the major ads in those newspapers, it certainly did tend to moderate the level of criticism, unless the particular merchant or merchants had gone beyond reasonable violence. So they were able to keep somewhat of a balance in the community. And, again, they showed up at many of the major events and other kind of things. So they were not impossible people to live with. They did, basically, as time went on—if you go way back, of course, they did not hire blacks—but as time went on, most of their employees were black. So they did begin to integrate into the neighborhood, the white business people, to a good extent.
Tyler
They actually, well, responded to the black protest that insisted that they didn't resist it. Not overwhelmingly
King
There was a resistance, if you go back to the fifties.
Tyler
Oh, really?
King
I'm sorry—
Tyler
The thirties?
King
Yeah, to the thirties.
Tyler
The Depression, yeah.
King
There was a resistance at that point to— You had basically the white owner, and you had a situation where there were community protests in order for blacks to get employment. Even the five-and-ten-cent store—
Tyler
[S. H.] Kress [and Company Variety Stores].
King
—at one time, yeah, it did not employ [blacks]. And it created a picket line, and that was the major confrontation situation that occurred. But I think that clearly the white business people could see that it was in their self-interests, because, number one, they had a cheaper labor supply that was out there, and if they were reasonably selective they could find good employees. So what was a big thrust, of course, on the part of the community, awakened the white community to find that, hey, it's easier to do business by hiring people in the community who can virtually walk to work. It is also, again, the opportunity to be able to pick and choose at the
Tyler
Did you or anyone else perceive that that presented a problem for the rise of independent black businesses because now it was hard to distinguish between a black business and a black-fronted business? Did you perceive any problem with that then?
King
No, because we knew the community; the community was still comparatively small. And since we knew the community so well, we knew which businesses were black-owned and which businesses were not. We were around the people, everybody who worked in these places, so it was kind of difficult to do a front. After all, you know, we lived in the community, we ate in the community, we socialized in the community, so we knew everyone in the communities. It was not a situation where the front kind of thing was easily available at that particular point. Now, at later points, when there was a rapid movement of businesses—rapid meaning really over a period of a number of years—it did become more difficult to determine whether or not there was white financing behind some of the businesses. But to a large extent, the white financing was more in the form of loans anyway: loans or credit or balances that were due
Tyler
Was there any consciousness of black business groups feeling that they were competing with these whites, or they just didn't think in those terms?
King
Well, we were competing basically against whites for a long, long period of time, and, by and large, there were even white professionals that were in the area who were white doctors, white dentists, that were still in the area. As those individual kind of practitioners did—meaning the white practitioners—did go out occasionally, you would find a situation where, say, a dental firm would come in, and they would offer better credit terms (or at least they would advertise better credit terms), and they would talk about the ease in which it was to acquire their services. And, of course, there was not as much in terms of local advertising budget to compete with those budgets. And there were also people that were outside the community that were advertising inside the community. People who were, say, lawyers, who were down in the Spring Street section; white lawyers and very few black lawyers were downtown at that time. So they advertised their services by the means that was done at that time. Advertising to a large extent was— How much time's left on this tape?
Tyler
Oh, maybe twenty minutes, I guess. Okay. We have been still talking about business. Now, blacks never
King
No. In terms of the major businesses that were there, the major corners that were there and the major, more expensive real estate, it was basically dominated by the Jewish group, similar to other urban black areas in this country. The Jewish group was there. But they had sort of a humanistic approach to being able to function. And I would certainly not say that they were benevolent to a fault [laughter] by any means, but they did respond to those things that in their perception were for the benefit of the community and not anti their interests.
Tyler
Now, did they come to Central Avenue as blacks clustered there, or they were already there, because didn't Italians tend to live and dominate the area before blacks began to spread further south?
King
Yeah, there were Italians that were there. Somehow, the Italians, whether it be true or not true, their perception got involved with the gambling element, with the numbers, the bookmaking, that kind of a situation. And it was very clear that the chief of police, and I've forgotten exactly when [William H.] Parker went in, I think maybe '37—
Tyler
Nineteen fifty. Parker became chief in 1950.
King
Okay, well, back starting in the late thirties, I guess, early forties, Parker began to be an influence as
Tyler
Well, wait a minute now. You're actually talking about Frank [L.] Shaw, who tolerated that during the thirties, saying that that was a form of employment. Then there was the whole movement to recall Shaw because of the so-called payoffs of Central Avenue gambling, prostitution, and, well, prior to '32 or '33, the bootleg activities that had been occurring. Because Parker actually came in saying he was going to clean up the whole city and run organized crime out, and felt that the black community of Central Avenue was almost, well, [a] red-light district.
King
And he turned it around. [laughter] No question. I think one of his ways of turning it around was to prevent
Tyler
Well, now, did Parker play a big role in the decline of Central Avenue, if any?
King
No, I don't think so. I think it would be easy to say that he did, but I think what he probably did was to cause it to sustain itself—certainly, the surrounding community where that was residential—so that it was still a reasonable place to live. It never really declined totally as far as a place to live. A lot of the people there were homeowners, had families, [and] raised their kids there; it was not a bad place to grow up.
Tyler
Now, there's been charges that Parker harassed interracial couples; he didn't approve of the patronage of Hollywood people there. If there's any connection in what you're saying that he didn't want any outsiders spreading corruption in Central Avenue, would there be any connection with the Hollywood crowd coming there for social life, thinking that that would go over into gambling or prostitution or too much interracial contact for some conservative police chief?
Well, you had the reverse integration situation, in that the whites no longer had to go to Central Avenue in order to be around blacks. Because as integration opened up, a lot of the white clubs had a large black patronage. And as a result of that, it was possible to go to Berg's place on Vine [Street]—
Tyler
Billy Berg?
King
Yeah, and there find a well-integrated house.
Tyler
And black jazzmen. [laughter]
King
Yeah, so the black jazz people that had been playing on Central Avenue moved there. You know, they had people go where they can get work, and that work became accessible. And, of course, those clubs were open, and anyone could go there, so you just had a situation where two things were occurring at the same time, like— Maybe three dimensions were occurring: one, that it was more difficult to do business on the Central Avenue situation, and even another thing logistically, those people had further to go in order to get to Central. They had the opening up of the new integrated kind of spaces so they could step into those integrated spaces, and they would be around the whole black scene. It got to a point, of course, where the big black bands were playing all over, and the smaller trios and other popular-attraction folk were moving too. Now, the blues, oddly enough, didn't seem to really catch on in the
Tyler
Of course, Nat [King] Cole had his famous trio here [that] played around.
King
Yes, Nat [King] Cole had come out of the purely black community in Chicago but was moving more into white circles for a number of reasons: one, they could make more money, and number two, they had an opportunity to break into new areas of clientele that would be supportive of their operation.
Tyler
It was also charged that with Parker becoming police chief, and you mentioned the problem of parking, that there were a lot of tickets being given out on Central Avenue or in that area. People overparking or parking—
King
Oh, and how there were! Every day, when the four-thirty to six period and the parking beyond the time limit— They really overworked that community.
Was it done, say, exceptionally on Central Avenue compared to other areas?
King
I would say clearly.
Tyler
Why?
King
I think just to some extent it was a method of kind of controlling the community. It prevented people from staying in some places for long periods of time, and, basically, it slowed down commerce. People that used to go there, after they get a couple tickets, they just wouldn't, wouldn't go back.
Tyler
Do you think that was a conscious effort to break up the black community, or what?
King
Well, it was kind of done under the guise of it being a traffic control so that there would be more room on Central Avenue for the traffic flow and those kind of things. And what the bottom line was I'm not a hundred percent certain, because merchants themselves could have— [tape recorder off] Where were we? I'm sorry.
Tyler
We were talking about the ticketing on Central Avenue and how it was so heavy that it tended to keep people away from socializing or doing business there.
King
Yeah, I don't know whether or not even businessmen were involved, because I imagine—
Tyler
No, I mean in terms of people coming into the shop or whatever when other areas became open or more
King
Yeah, well, the point I'm trying to stress is that if you have a limited amount of parking space, and the people come and park all day, it can likewise inhibit business contacts, just as if you get the overticketing. So it was, maybe, six one way and four another way. But the situation of heavy ticketing became very well known throughout the city. In fact, even the guy who was working that three-wheeler, he became very well known, too, as giving out tickets. He probably gave out more tickets than anybody in the history of this city.
Tyler
Well, who was that?
King
It's hard for me to remember the police officer's name, but—
Tyler
Black police officer?
King
Yeah, black police officer. In fact, he retired a few years ago; he still has the reputation of being the number one ticket person in L.A. But he did a job—
Tyler
That wasn't Sid Henricks, was it?
King
No, no, no. Sid was—
Tyler
Seventh [Street] and Central.
Volume II
Tape Number: IX, Side One
July 14, 1985
Okay, I think we'll start with asking you the question, which did you get involved with first, civil rights activity or political activity?
King
I really kind of got involved with civil rights activity in the early forties. I had a clear concern for the problems and the plight certainly of blacks, and I guess I've somewhat understood that other minorities were having similar problems. But I was a little bit preoccupied with blacks, and, of course, with the war coming along for the first year. Plus, I wasn't particularly concerned with the situation of civil rights or integration, because I was simply totally occupied and consumed going through the flying program down at Tuskegee [Institute]. But shortly after I had completed that, I was back into that sort of a thought.
Politically, on the other hand, I began to move in that direction a little bit in 1948. I got a little bit involved at that point because I was a supporter of Harry [S.] Truman. Truman had had a lot to do with what happened to blacks during the period, the latter part of World War II, and he had also been the person who, back in, oh, I guess it was 1939 when he was a senator, who carried a piece of legislation to allocate some dollars for black
Tyler
Nineteen forty-eight.
King
`Forty-eight was when he ran for office.
Tyler
But that was one of his first agendas. Actually, though, it was a gradual process.
King
It was a gradual process, and it was fairly clear that it was going to occur. He had, I guess it was the secretary of the navy make that statement and, coming from the secretary of the navy, where if you passed all the entry exams with flying colors and you went into the navy they would ask you, "How is your ability at being a steward?" Because you could only work in the galley when you were in the navy. Blacks had not moved to that point. We have come a long way, because now you have General Frank [E.] Petersen [Jr.], who now is a two-star general with the marines; and, of course, he really came out of the navy because he was a naval pilot, and the top 10 percent of the class of the naval pilots go into the marines. So things have changed considerably, and Harry Truman was one of those who moved it along.
I was very, very pro-integration at that particular
In 1951, I got involved in my first political campaign, and that was here; well, when I say first, first in a serious way and one that was sort of a hands-on that you could see the impact of it, and that was Roger Arnebergh for city attorney. That was a long time ago. And from that it continued on. I—
Tyler
How did you happen to get involved? You just interjected yourself, or did someone sort of pave the way for you to get involved, or what?
King
Well, I think I was really just waiting on more time. I finished school, finished what I— At least, I thought I had finished at that point, and I got a bachelor's. And I opened up my own bail bonds shop, and I was involved in activities around the courthouse, which meant the city attorneys and district attorneys and that entire criminal justice process. So at that particular point that's when I began to get involved politically.
Tyler
Now, did that continue, or fluctuate? What practically did you do? Did you join a Democratic party club, or were you pretty much an independent Democrat, or what?
King
Well, I never have been a Democrat. At one time, I signed as an independent, which was really a situation where you simply make no choice. It had some shortcomings.
Tyler
Before 1932.
King
Right, and then at that time—
Tyler
Well, actually '36 was when blacks made the big change.
King
Yeah. In 19[36] my family did not change, though. They stayed Republican, and I felt fairly comfortable joining the Republican party because of just the tradition at that particular point.
Tyler
You joined when?
King
I think it was about '52 that I moved my registration from "decline to state"—maybe it was '51, I'm not too sure—"decline to state" to the Republican party. Now, for a while there, I was going to night school, and I was also earning a living, and I, of course, [had] the family commitments—we had three little kids. I just didn't have time for politics or anything else going into the—
Tyler
—early fifties.
Well, up through 1950, I just did not have time for it. My concern was always there, and I knew that if I had the opportunity, I would be getting more involved.
Tyler
Why did your family never shift like the majority of blacks did from Republican to Democratic? From '36 onward, when '36 is the major shift for blacks.
King
Well, when we were in Chicago, one of the things that occurred was that my mother [Leontyne Butler King] was working at a dress shop—and this is back when jobs were very, very hard to get—and she understood fashions very well and was an excellent buyer. She worked for a dress store on Forty-seventh Street near South Park Way, which by the way has been renamed Martin Luther King Drive, meaning South Park has. And my mother was doing quite well back during the Depression. She was making an enormous sum of $35 a week, which was a lot of money back in those days. [laughter] It's hard to imagine, but it really was. It was a lot of money. And what happened was the union people, who were all Democrats, came in, and they wanted to unionize the store. My mother had worked her way up to being the buyer, and there were very few black buyers back in those days. What happened was they were putting pressure on her to join the union. And they were all basically the— It was the Democrat effort to do so. And we weren't opposed to unions by any means, nor were we
Tyler
Can you name some of the tactics used?
King
Yeah, well, some of the tactics were that, in addition to the picket-line things that they had that they were putting up— These were little small operations; these were not the big operations. They weren't attacking the Wall Street, Walgreen drugstores, or the major businesses. What was happening is they were just isolating the small businesses at that time and forcing them to knuckle under. Well, the fellow who owned the shop said that he was not going to—who owned this dress shop—said that, and it was one of the larger dress shops. But still, on a comparative basis, it was no downtown-department-store type situation. So they— In the process, my mother, of course, sided with management there. I guess they had maybe a dozen people or so that were working as sales clerks and along those particular lines. And all of the people that were identified with the union were also identified with the Democratic party, and they just gave us a bad time, my mother in particular, and I simply just made
Tyler
Any particular reason?
King
The players. The people that were involved at that point were basically all the local Democrats that were involved. Most of the union people at that point were. And again, we were not antiunion by any means, and we still are not antiunion by any means. But at that particular point, when it was threatening whether or not we would be able to continue to survive, you'd be surprised how pragmatic you can look at things, even at a young age. I mean, I still wanted to have a bicycle, you know. And I wasn't that much into politics that I didn't want my mother
Tyler
No, I understand that. I came up and was involved in radical politics, and we had three unions on one job. Came to work, and the Teamsters were out there picketing. We didn't go in; our shop steward made a call to our union. He says, "We're in negotiation. The Teamsters are not cooperating with us. They have no district strike sanction; you have to go into work and cross their picket line, it's not a legal or legitimate picket line. If you don't and they fire you, then we have no legal basis to protect you." And the other side was saying, "C'mon, let's wildcat, go out with us." And I was very pragmatic; I had a job, an apartment. I was out on my own, you know, can't go back to momma no more. And I had to square with the reality, [laughter] so I know what you mean in terms of those situations when it really hits you. You can talk about it in back rooms, but when you're right upon it, [laughter] the reality of power and reality hits you.
King
Sure, we were concerned with trying to make it then. My parents were the kind of people who would not accept relief, so our choices were, we had to almost always just pretty well stand fast and protect our interests and fight for survival. But I think that the ethic was a good ethic, and again, we want people to get fair wages, and we have always tried as much as we could; consistent upon the
Tyler
Did you ever have any strikes or labor problems at the Dunbar Hotel?
King
No, we didn't ever have any. In fact, it was one of the better paying hotel-type jobs around. So the people that had those jobs held onto them pretty good.
Tyler
So you did have a big turnover then.
King
No, we didn't have a big turnover. I mean, even down to the bellhops that were there. They wanted those jobs because the tips were better there than they were elsewhere. The people that were involved at the bar and at the grill, that was contracted out. And those people, by and large, were making more money on tips than most people were making for salaries, because it was the place where there was a lot of action. And there was day action, and night action. Even the other places that were around, there were more bartenders than there were slots available in bars for them to work. So people pretty well held onto those jobs. And there was also the fact that they had the opportunity to, at early stages, to meet and see and interact with major figures in the country. So it had a lot of redeeming benefits, and there were no [jobs]. My uncle [James Nelson] by no means was kind to a fault, but
Tyler
Now, in terms of politics, you did go for and support with your vote some campaign, or speak for Truman because of his racial policies? But still there was no continued commitment. What happened? Why?
King
Well, I'll tell you. When, by the time '52 came around and Adlai [E.] Stevenson was there, Adlai Stevenson was not able to break through totally as far as the black community was concerned. There were an awful lot of blacks who went for [Dwight D.] Eisenhower.
Tyler
Why?
King
Well, you had a high veteran population from World War II, and there were still an awful lot of people who identified with him. He was not a negative factor as far as blacks were concerned. He didn't do that much for them, by any means, but he was not one of those generals who was
Tyler
Who was Mark Clark?
King
Mark Clark? He was a commanding general in the Italian theater. Great military man. And whether it be true or not true, they had all these kind of things going around that he was anti-black.
Tyler
Did he speak out against blacks? He was unhappy with black participation morale or fighting capacity, or what?
King
Well, I can simply say this, that was just the general reputation of Mark Clark, that he was not interested in giving blacks the opportunity to fight, and basically that they were not as good as soldiers as whites. That was just a general reputation now. Whether or not there was a real basis for that reputation, I'm not in the position to say, but to this day, of all the people that I've ever run into that have discussed him—soldiers, etc.—I have only heard one person say anything favorable about Mark Clark, that is black. Now, that does not necessarily— Maybe he's simply just—
Tyler
Was that true of [George S.] Patton?
King
No, no. Patton—unlike the movie, no. Patton had blacks under his command, and he utilized them. A soldier
Tyler
Now, what about General [Edwin A.] Walker? He's into the fifties of Korea [and] went around denouncing blacks and integration.
King
Yeah, he was a little bit later in the game, but I think, by and large, that it was the general attitude of most people that were at a high level. I doubt seriously if most white commanders had much regards for black soldiers, even though black soldiers had performed quite well and had received many medals of valor throughout many years. I think that the generals and the higher echelon basically just did not think much about blacks. But it was a whole societal kind of a situation. I mean, like, blacks that were with us at Tuskegee, we could not use the local facilities; you couldn't go bowling, you couldn't go to the restrooms. They had to hand you a sandwich out of the side of the restaurant. I think the whole society was that way.
Tyler
Yeah. Well, actually, it was the army. Plus, the army, or the military, had a formal policy of segregation.
King
Clearly.
Tyler
But now, isn't it true, or is it not true, that Eisenhower testified in opposition to integrating the armed services?
King
He probably did, because he was probably no different, but he was kind of low profile on it. He did
Tyler
He was going to?
King
Yeah, that was one of his campaign promises.
Tyler
You mean, socially or the military there or what? You mean the public facilities there?
King
Public facilities.
Tyler
That was one of his campaign promises?
King
Said he was going to strike them all down. And he did. He did. And, of course, then everyone knew that if you did it in Washington, D.C., that it would be somewhat of a model for the rest of the country—
Tyler
I was unaware of that. That was a campaign commitment of his, what, in '48?
King
'Fifty-two.
Tyler
'Fifty-two, I mean. And he actually followed through with it?
King
[long pause] Yeah. And he got a good vote in '56. He got a good vote, black vote. Not only that, he had blacks that were high up in his administration that were visible—
Tyler
Like, can you name them, or—
King
I guess I'd be straining quite a bit to come up with the names, but maybe in due course I will be able to put some—
Did the Little Rock hurt him or help him with blacks?
King
The Little Rock situation helped him with blacks, but I don't think it was really a black issue with him. They could have been any ethnic group. He was— You don't become a general in the army and expect to have to negotiate with people when you give them an order. And when he gave an order, and they disregarded the order, they could have been lily-white! I mean, it would not make any difference with him; it's a matter of his entire lifetime training. You just don't disregard an order that's given by—and he was still—[a] general. Eisenhower [laughter] was president, and he had a general's mentality. After all, he had been in the armed services all his life.
Tyler
Well, the president is also commander-in-chief of the armed services. [laughter]
King
Yeah, but you had different types of presidents.
Tyler
Yeah.
King
If they were, [laughter] his background was, hey, if I give an order, hey, that order's going to be carried out.
Tyler
But this was the Supreme Court that desegregated in Little Rock; the whole South, the whole country revolted against it, really. And he had to reluctantly enforce the law.
King
Yeah, but once he had to enforce it, he was going to
Tyler
Now, you supported Truman, a Democrat, on personality; then you shifted to Eisenhower, but then most blacks did. How were these events affecting you? Was that an experience, a second experience that would make you even more firm in your Republican politics, or what?
King
Well, Eisenhower made what he called the worst appointment that he ever made, in his view, the appointment of Warren to the Supreme Court.
Tyler
Earl Warren.
King
Earl Warren was California, and I sometimes think back and wonder, was this really the governor of California, because Earl Warren and my uncle were friends.
Tyler
Jimmy Nelson?
King
Yeah.
How did they happen to be friends?
King
My uncle was a Republican, and he used the hotel as a headquarters for Warren when he ran.
Tyler
For governor?
King
Yeah, and how! [laughter] Yeah.
Tyler
And, let's see, Warren was governor in what, the forties, was it?
King
Well, I guess Warren—
Tyler
During the war?
King
Warren was governor, yeah, during the war.
Tyler
Was it after Culbert [L.] Olson was governor up until '42, '38 to '42?
King
Yeah, and he came in after Olson.
Tyler
So it had to be '42, '46. What'd he serve, two terms?
King
I think two plus, because he didn't leave until '53. Eisenhower went in, in '52, and then he appointed Earl Warren when the vacancy occurred.
Tyler
Anyway, I guess you were going to say the impact all of this had on you.
King
Well, the impact was kind of a mixed bag. And it was basically the rhetoric of most of the liberal Democrats, and then the reality that it was Democrats who were on both sides of the issue.
Tyler
Can you explain that?
Well, I guess the question was always, what kind of a Democrat is a person? And they pretty well covered the gamut, all the way from the Dixiecrat in the South, the boll weevil type, all the way around to the ultraliberal. Well, you had the ultraliberal, which were like the [Hubert H.] Humphreys and the [John F.] Kennedys and that whole—
Tyler
Roosevelt.
King
—yeah, whole crowd. You had Jimmy [James] Roosevelt, who was in Congress at the time—
Tyler
Well, I meant actually his father [Franklin D. Roosevelt].
King
Yeah, but his father really wasn't that liberal, as I view it.
Tyler
In terms of the race issue.
King
You had that all the way to Democrats who were being accused of being, in the terminology that was used, being "pinky" at that particular time. "Pinky" was sort of a code word for being pretty close to the communist-cell type situation.
Tyler
The "fellow traveler," was it?
King
Yeah. So you had then a Democratic party that was almost like a fan that went from one end of the gamut almost to another, because those Democrats that were in the South were ultraconservative in their approach, and as I looked out, it looked like to me that the liberal portion
Tyler
So, now, are you saying in essence that blacks were basically in the Democratic party following the liberals— But the liberals did not actually dominate the party; the conservatives and the Dixiecrats did. Or, at least, the liberals couldn't get much done in terms of delivering to blacks?
King
They couldn't get very much done, and to their credit, they were the ones who were saying most of the right things at a very critical kind of a period. Over and over, they were talking about the need for equal opportunity, for a chance for people to get jobs and to go into other areas of employment other than those traditional kind of black employment situations. I think, ultimately, that when they did get their way, I think they did probably a considerable amount of harm on one side and a considerable amount of good as far as blacks are concerned on the other
Tyler
This is the liberal Democrats?
King
Yeah, yeah, because the liberal Democrats to some extent measured their success in the amount of dollars that they were able to direct toward the black community. Well, ultimately, if you throw in enough things like that, you will also create the handicap of people being dependent on that kind of a dole out of the government.
Tyler
Okay, then. So you're saying that after your flirtation with Truman, then you found Eisenhower attractive, his commitment to desegregate Washington, then you had to— Did you also share this veteran euphoria with Eisenhower, in terms of having this World War II experience in common, and you voted for him for that reason, or because you were Republican, you voted? What would be your main motivation?
King
Well, Adlai Stevenson did not particularly impress me. He was a very erudite speaker who had just a lot of gimmicks and other kind of phrases that he used to run through, and I used to listen to the quotes and to the phrases. And then I looked at what he had done in Illinois. I had grown up in Illinois; he was the governor there and didn't look like he had done anything in Illinois, so I figured he probably wouldn't be able to do much in Washington. Also, he didn't seem like to me
Tyler
So, now, with the Kennedy challenge to the Republicans, and [Richard M.] Nixon, I guess you might want to consider California politics. How is it that your commitment continued, your involvement in politics and civil rights? What did you do practically? What was impacting upon you?
King
Well, I was participating with a number of the civil rights approaches: I was involved with CORE [Congress of Racial Equality], involved with NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People], and we had a couple of small sort of indigenous groups that were around. We tended to support the concerns of getting blacks into positions of political leadership, which basically meant projects like the two-four plan that came along in the late sixties where we supported that and I ultimately—
Tyler
What's the two-four plan?
King
Two-four plan was in 1960 when the configuration of the voting districts was being changed; it was an effort
Tyler
Who were the leaders in that movement?
King
[S.] Wendell Green, who, by the way, is still around, and, let's see, Perry—
Tyler
—Washington?
King
Perry [C.] Parks [Jr.], who is still around; Vaino [H.] Spencer, who's a judge; he is still around. A lawyer by the name of [Edward] Maddox, who is now deceased—he was Loren Miller [Jr.]'s partner.
Tyler
You mean Gordon? Hugh Gordon?
King
No.
Tyler
Not Hugh Gordon, Walter [L.] Gordon, [Jr.].
King
Walter was around and participated in Republican politics at that time; in fact, he ran for office. He ran for the state assembly.
Tyler
In what, 1960?
King
Oh, it's hard to remember exactly what year it was, but it was probably about '60, because Gus [Augustus F.] Hawkins was in at the time, and in '62 Gus went to Congress.
Yes.
King
So, yeah, it was probably just about that time.
Tyler
Now, was the organization leading this the Democratic Minority Conference?
King
It was basically made up of Democrats.
Tyler
But there was an actual group called the Democratic Minority Conference.
King
Right. No, it was not.
Tyler
No?
King
There was probably a little crossfire in there, though. But, no, it was a separate group, and they did their political work on drawing the boundaries and other kind of things of what was our position as a community. And the two-four made a lot of sense; we've ended up today with possibly the direct results of that: we have [Diane] Watson and [William] Greene as two state senators, and we have three people in the [state] assembly. So they did pretty well.
Tyler
But most of these blacks ran and were elected as Democrats.
King
All of them that ran and were elected were elected as Democrats.
Tyler
And you supported all of this?
King
Oh, yeah. I didn't have any problem with that.
Tyler
So then you were mainly supporting black political
King
Absolutely.
Tyler
So, why did— Did you support John F. Kennedy for his presidency and then Lyndon Baines Johnson?
King
No. I did not support either one, but I was very impressed with Kennedy. The convention in 1960 took place here in Los Angeles, and the [Los Angeles] Sports Arena was where they had all of the general meetings. And at that time, I threw a party for the black delegates to the Democratic convention.
Tyler
Despite the fact you were Republican?
King
Well, I don't know whether it was despite the fact that I was a Republican. [laughter]
Tyler
[laughter] Although you were a Republican.
King
[laughter] Yeah. And some people still remember the party that I threw.
Tyler
Yeah? [laughter]
King
At that time—
Tyler
That was here?
King
Right here, yeah. At my house.
Tyler
Did you get any backlash from your Republican—or were you active in the Republican party or committee here?
King
I was active in the Republican party, but blacks who were here as delegates were significant in the black movement across the country. And I was involved in making
Tyler
Okay.
King
I had a, as recent as last year, fellow who was in Ohio who is a judge there now. In fact, when he was here, he was the youngest black judge in America. He is still on the bench back there, and he's, of course, worked his way pretty well to the top now. But, he sent word to say hello to me not too long ago.
Tyler
So did you actively campaign for Kennedy?
King
No, no, I did not.
Tyler
Did you vote for him, or for Nixon?
King
I voted for Nixon. I did not see that Kennedy had any particular background that would cause me to think—
Tape Number: IX, Side Two
July 14, 1985
Tyler
Well, we were making some distinctions between your support of black civil rights people and your political vote. Now, I know you as an activist Republican. Were you an activist Republican then in the fifties, early sixties, or were your Republican politics sort of private and you were pretty much into civil rights then?
King
I was into both; I was an activist Republican inside of the party, constantly talking about the same issues that I was talking about on civil rights. The level of receptiveness probably, if measured, would not have been as high, at least certainly in terms of the rhetoric, as it was over on the Democratic side. But the Democrats, too, really were not that liberal. It just was that they were a step or so in front of the Republicans. But there wasn't anybody who was really making any major steps in terms of crossing the line. No, we could not buy where we chose to in the late fifties, even though a lot of areas had opened up. And as far back as 1948, there had been local decisions that tended to inch away at the covenants, the protective covenants that were built into deeds, and ultimately, of course, the Supreme Court indicated that these type of covenants which restricted who, based on ethnic background, could buy the land, those were deemed
Tyler
Okay, [laughter] we're back on track here now.
King
Okay, I was referring to 1960 at the time that the Democratic convention took place here at the L.A. Sports Arena. In terms of the number of people that we had in the state legislature, there were only two elected officials, one out of Berkeley and one out of Los Angeles. They were both in the assembly, so—
Tyler
Hawkins—
King
Hawkins was one and the other fellow was a pharmacist out of Berkeley. Can't put my finger on his name at the time, but I knew him quite well, and he had been a houseguest with us; he had been over several times. [William Byron Rumford] But there again, when you
Tyler
What was the occasion?
King
The occasion was at— I think we had a little get-together for my grandmother [Sadie Nelson King] at that time, and we invited them over, and they came over. In fact, I still have some pictures of my grandmother with the Poulsons right here, right in the front row.
Tyler
Now, this Republican connection in California started with Jimmy Nelson and the Dunbar Hotel being a campaign headquarters, or the black— Was it sort of the black connection in the Republican politics in the area?
King
Oh, yeah. It was. It was a key political
Tyler
The black activists or notables in the area never objected, or felt—
King
No. There was no particular problem at that point.
Tyler
You know, one of the things that just dawned on me is that I'm thinking in terms of present-day black leadership positions [of] hostility toward Republicans. And I was just naturally reading that back, and I said, "Wait a minute. That couldn't be possible." Because here you come in out of the fifties when blacks were very favorable toward Republicans and the Democratic southern wing was the violent wing, suppressing blacks despite they were all in the same party. And blacks had voted for Eisenhower two terms, and when Kennedy came along, there was no big reserve of black hostility toward Republicans. That's something that comes much later.
King
It does.
Tyler
So this is where it dawned on me in talking that I had to keep that in mind. And you can see the question I just asked you was charged with that attitude, that how
King
It comes starting, oh, I guess, '62 through— It began to creep in '63 more, '64, '65, and from there on it just ran rampant.
Tyler
Because actually now, in '60, Kennedy had to win blacks back over into the Democratic camp, right?
King
Well, he had a margin—
Tyler
In terms of the presidential kind of campaign.
King
He had a margin, and, of course, he had the benefit of being able to play around with the Martin Luther King [Jr.] situation by making the telephone call to Coretta [Scott] King when he was in custody, and that was a real plus. Nixon had the opportunity to make the call and chose not to.
Tyler
Now, was that okay then? Was this crucial? Were you conscious of these alternatives then? That there was a possibility of the Democrats carrying the civil rights football or the Republicans? Were you conscious of that and had been trying to do something with that?
King
Oh, yeah. That had been one of the things that we had consistently made efforts to try to focus attention on: the need for change in terms of the attitude of the hierarchy of the party. And by the way, as time goes on, it does go full swing, but at that particular point, it was
Tyler
Why?
King
Well, I think you had a— The bulwark of the Republicans were basically conservative, and these were the people that were making things happen in the Republican party. So those conservatives tended to kind of stick together, and there was no particular outreach for blacks. They weren't making any heavy effort. And then, too, you have to remember it was the person that was running against Kennedy, even though I had a personal, excellent rapport with a person who had been, of course, the former vice president and the former senator from here, and had known him for a long period of time on a one-to-one basis. In fact, after he lost the presidency and didn't have much to do, it wasn't too unusual for my wife, Anita [Givens King], and I and Dick Nixon and Pat [Patricia Ryan Nixon], and one other couple—that was Cris [Crispus A.] Wright and his wife Helen—we'd go to dinner and social functions and those kind of things together on a fairly regular basis. I was not completely hung up with the true-believer concept between '60 and '62. I rather suspected at all times that things were going to work out and that they were on the road. I did not at that particular time envision that the road would be all cobblestones. [laughter] I thought that at some point along the line,
Tyler
Because of the political pressures for people in suburbs and other areas who felt threatened by civil rights and integration and the black push for opportunities.
King
So as time went on I was just greatly concerned with making these changes. I was at a point where my income was beginning to go up to a point where I felt that I should be able to take my children, take my spouse pretty [much] anyplace that we chose to go. We had started going to Las Vegas on occasion back, oh, in 1955.
Tyler
Was it segregated then?
King
Totally segregated. But—
Tyler
You just couldn't go to the hotels or the casinos or nothing? They would bar you?
King
Every one of them.
Tyler
How would they do it? Was it by law, or was it a policy that everyone knew, or when you came somehow you were out of place, or what?
King
It was a policy that was over there and that may have been supported to some extent by law, but, basically it was a policy. In 1954 we had a friend whose name was Fox, and Fox had been in the liquor business, and my dad [Celestus A. King, Jr.] had been in the liquor business
Tyler
Oh, that's one of the second places I stopped— Foxy's, that little casino-restaurant-club and all that?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Oh. You get Whiskey Pete's, then Foxy's just as you get right into the edge of Vegas? Or right into Vegas?
King
It's, yeah, it's right on the far end of the strip.
Tyler
It's still there?
King
Yeah. Well, Foxy went over there and—
Tyler
That was a black— Is that a—
King
A white guy, a Jewish guy.
Tyler
Oh.
King
And Foxy's always been a friend. I mean, he was always around our store. Yes, we bought things from him, but he and my dad were in the [Southern California] Liquor Dealers Association together, and they'd raise money for various politicans and for various philanthropic groups. He was just a nice guy who was a business guy, and he and my dad related quite well. He had other blacks that were friends and when he went over there, he opened up his place, and he opened it up without restrictions. That was the first place along there that was open, and it just so happened we knew him quite well.
Tyler
So did that place boom because of his multiracial
King
No, I think it boomed because of the location and because of the fact that he went over there with a different type of a sandwich. He went over there with sort of these French dip-type sandwiches that were thick with the meat and, you know, that kind of situation, and heavy with the onions and all that. And fine. They were just great sandwiches. In early 1955 I had occasion to be coming through Las Vegas, and I was driving, and I stopped there, and that was the only place you could eat, other than on the west side. I went in, talked to Foxy, and— The black entertainers could not eat in the places where they were even playing.
Tyler
Oh, in '55 they were allowed to come and play there?
King
Oh, yeah. You had Nat King Cole and—
Tyler
But wait a minute, Nat King Cole, 1957, live At the Sands was the first—I got that album—I think that was the first breakthrough then.
King
Okay, now, I'm not exactly sure on the year—
Tyler
Unless that's the big, major attraction. Maybe they were doing minor, what they call it, lounge stuff, rather than the big—
King
They were doing feature shows—
Tyler
—cocktail shows rather than the lounge shows,
King
They were doing big shows. Sammy Davis, Jr., was doing it. No, it could be '55, '56 or so, because I went up there kind of consistently starting in '55. When I went through there in early '55, I stopped by this place on the west side where they were building the Moulin Rouge. They had not completed it. And I walked in and, of course, I was aware that Joe Louis was going to be acting as the maitre'd there and that this was going to be just one heck of a place.
Tyler
That was going to be the black—
King
That was going to be the black strip.
Tyler
Blacks didn't own it, but they were going to cater to the black trade?
King
Right. And it was on the west side. It's still there, by the way, the building is, and it's still a nice building. It was only recently, as I understand it, purchased by blacks. But anyway, I walked into this place, and they were building it, and I walked around and I said, "I want to talk to the owner because I want to get reservations here for the opening."
And the guy said, "Well, we're not taking any reservations."
I said, "Well, look, you must not be the owner, because," I said, "I know the owner isn't going to turn
And the guy says, "You're the first person who has made any reservations."
"Yeah," I said, "that's fine."
And I had these rooms locked up which were the best ones there, and I knew that there was going to be a real scramble among my little set over here, you know, about going over for the opening. So I made a real big thing out of the fact that I had these rooms tied up, and I gave them away until I gave it down to, I think, three rooms (I had six). I gave three of them away, and that was a big thing. And opening night I pulled up over there, and sure enough, hey, Joe Louis was there when they opened the car door, and I had known him when I was a kid back in Chicago. So this was sort of the good life that was beginning to open up to blacks. A lot of these things were just not open. Hey, when you went to Las Vegas, you stopped at a motel on the west side or you stopped with a friend. That's where it was. You did not stop at any of the hotels, the places on the strips at all. Now, it just so happened that we knew most of the people who were stars and who were playing in the big rooms, that were black, and
Tyler
You could get a hotel, or you could just get into the club's arena?
King
Just into the club arena. Could not gamble.
Tyler
But you could get in and just watch him.
King
Get in and watch the show.
Tyler
And then cut out.
King
And then step on out of there.
Tyler
You could buy drinks and sit at the table.
King
Buy drinks, buy dinner, and sit at the table—
Tyler
But then you always knew that that was limited and it had to be restricted. It was no free-flowing, come-into-the-door, first-server reservation business.
King
No reservations.
Tyler
So the only way you could get in was through that little personal limited deal.
King
That was it.
Tyler
Loopholes.
King
I think the first one that I attended was Sammy Davis, Jr. I had known Sammy since he was a kid, and his father and uncle. Because, you just— Everybody was around the hotel, and those kind of things. And I called Sammy
Tyler
So, in actuality, this was like the vanguard of integration, very limited, but still, you know—
King
Yeah. Still there.
Tyler
Yeah.
King
And you constantly did hear the situation of, "Oh, you went there?" But very, very few blacks were going in, and frankly, it was kind of unfortunate, because certainly the blacks that were able to pay their way to get into those places and pay for those dinner shows, their money's spent like anyone else's money. And they were not cheap on a comparative basis of what a buck was worth then and what it is now. I mean, you were paying pretty good money back in those days. So, as time went on, one of my commitments to myself was that I was going to help open up that town. And it took a decade, but we did it.
Tyler
Like, what did you do?
King
Well, kind of skipping forward, then, when I became much more active in the movement, we began to relate to the people in Vegas closely. There were certain things that they, certain restraints that they were under, because—
What do you mean? The musicians? The black musicians, or who?
King
People who lived over in Vegas.
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
And there were things that we could sort of take a bigger risk on, because we were just in for a short period of time and we were stepping on out of there. And we began to have area meetings over there from time to time, and then about 1967, we just—that's where the line was drawn. It could have been a little bit before then, but I think it was in '67. Could have been in '66. We had, at that time, pretty well broken up all of the situation as far as being able to use the facilities, but we couldn't get anyone to work in these facilities. So the drive was no longer spending the money. The drive was get someone in, get the dealers; that was the real hard situation. It wasn't as hard to break down the situation on equal use of the facilities as it was to get the jobs. So that was when we made the major push on getting the jobs; prior to that, even though the blacks could spend their money there, they could not work.
Tyler
What was the rationale? That they would offend white patrons or run them off or something?
King
Well, I think one of the biggest things that helped in that town was Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes had long ago
Tyler
Wait a minute, but how was that? What did he do in race relations or something?
King
Howard Hughes had bought up four or five of the major hotels.
Tyler
Right. I remember some of that as a little kid, or heard about it.
King
And Howard Hughes was not interested particularly in whatever was done, except that he wasn't going to do anything that would be harmful to his investment. And that was one reason why we were able to make reasonable progress because he saw an opportunity there to broaden his base in terms of business. So, to him, it did not— I mean, the fact is that they had black maids, and they did not have black waiters or maitre'd's or people at the gambling tables. But they had them all over the lounge as musicians. And frankly, I think that he was so— There was such a mysticism about him until it was kind of difficult for people to be able to tell him, hey, look, you should not be doing this or you should be doing something. Because he always operated through surrogates, and nobody could ever really reach him. We had this meeting, and it was in one
Tyler
Oh, you could get in?
King
Oh, yeah, back in, up at this point. But you couldn't work. So until we could get to the point where we could work there, we hadn't accomplished anything except another opportunity to be able to spend the money.
Tyler
But, now, blacks were working in the traditional janitorial, maid, menial jobs, right?
King
Correct.
Tyler
They were working in that regard.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Which is, they were actually in the hotels, but not in the social scene or the gambling scene.
King
They were not in the gambling scene, they were not bartenders, they were not maitre'd's, they were not waiters—
Tyler
Or cooks? Were they cooks?
King
No. I can't say that, but I don't think so. I don't think the culinary was dead. Now, one of the real culprits in that situation was, there again, this protectiveness that belonged to the local people that were there. They were trying—the whites—they were protecting their jobs.
Tyler
But Las Vegas was booming.
King
Las Vegas was booming, but there were still people
Tyler
You mean the people participating?
King
Yeah. The number of blacks—
Tyler
And this is all over those jobs.
King
All over the thing about jobs. Yeah.
Tyler
So that put Las Vegas on notice.
King
Put them on notice and we came from all over. They came—
Tyler
But this was going to be a national thrust on Las Vegas, in effect, or at least it was getting off the ground to be—
King
Yeah. Clearly it was. So we were paying for everything there, but the Hughes people were just great. They brought in and hosted a big portion of it, unsolicited you know, just to let them know; they kind of gave us a signal that, hey, they really were not the problem. We didn't know exactly where the problems were, so we put a picket line in front of his [laughter] hotels just like we
Tyler
Yes, and you, like, get beat up over there—
King
—and everybody was willing, and there were helicopters flying around to watch the picket lines; the national news media was there—
Tyler
Now this was '67 again?
King
Probably was '67, yeah. News media was all over the place, and—
Tyler
This is pretty late in the game, too.
King
It was late in the game, and we were dead serious. We were dead serious.
Tyler
Yeah.
King
And when we went down there in front of the Teamsters— And there were very, very few of us that went down there and we really couldn't stay long. And the funny thing, I don't think they realized that we were really just in no position to keep this thing going. But they, I think, miscalculated the level of our strength, but let me tell you what was sad—
Tyler
But, see, the other thing is, too, even if they did, they say, it's no telling where it's going to go because we know the strength of the civil rights movement
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
Remember that during that time everything was open.
King
Everything was really open.
Tyler
The [Black] Panthers had appeared, major riots all over the country; couldn't you just see a riot in Las Vegas? [laughter]
King
Yeah, when I'm going down the street—
Tyler
[laughter] And they got all of those bulbs and lights that'll break? You know, I bet you they were thinking about that—hey, these Negroes from L.A. will come up here to riot. Anyway—
King
Well, one reason why we wanted— We couldn't even really sustain the picket line because our major effort was designed for a Sunday morning. And we had been there as sort of having our meetings and after each meeting, it's always been kind of traditional in the rights movement to always have social sets afterward, and everybody over there was— There was booze every place you could look, and there were snacks every place you would look, and you'd stay up
Tyler
[laughter] And everybody still half-sleeping.
King
[laughter] And all of the press is all over and helicopters up there— I've never seen so many helicopters at one time.
Tyler
Really? These are police helicopters?
King
Well, Hughes had five or six or seven or eight of his own up there watching his property.
Tyler
[laughter] He's got his Hughes helicopter here.
King
And—
Tyler
[inaudible]
King
Well, I don't know.
Tyler
Well, anyway—
King
It's hard to anticipate what they had in mind at that time. You just walked out there and looked up. But the element of the sun, that heat—inside those air-conditioned casions, you know, hey, it was 68 and 70 degrees. And, you know, a combination of hard meetings, the partying and all these things going on for these two days and you've been up day and night and then here goes our picket line and [laughter] we're going out there. And that sun was beating us to death.
Tyler
Why didn't you say, "Let's go in!" and invade them places?
Well, we had picket lines in front of almost every hotel.
Tyler
Oh, you had— Well, still, that's quite a few people.
King
We had, well, some of them were token in size, but nevertheless, we had them. And what we had to do was we had to just go in and out. We had, a few people would stay out there for a little bit, and would go in, then we'd exchange back and forth and back and forth—
Tyler
Where were the reserves, going into the casinos?
King
No, we were just standing by the doors, you know, just come in and cool off for a little bit and then go back out. And we were all by the doors at these various places.
Tyler
Now, what about the police? What were they—
King
Well, we really weren't causing any; it was—
Tyler
Were the police out in force or were they—
King
Oh, yeah, police were out in force, yeah.
Tyler
I guess they mobilized the hotel security, too?
King
Everybody was out there. And we really didn't have anything in mind other than a peaceful picket line. The only thing that made folk nervous at all was the Teamsters building. And there wasn't anyone in the Teamsters building. But it was just the idea of going and taking on the Teamsters and—
Tyler
Because they had that gangster crime go on. But,
King
We had a lot more going, I think, than we even realized.
Tyler
Which was?
King
We had the fact that we could return, that we had an ongoing program, and that the media was so heavy into this situation they were doing it live, you know, nationally, across the country; and hey, by Monday, Monday night, we were all gone. There wasn't anybody even left in town in Las Vegas. But it did not matter; even I got back. I was still seeing it on the tube Monday.
Tyler
They were still showing it?
King
Still showing it on the tube.
Tyler
So it was a big deal.
King
A big deal.
Tyler
So Las Vegas really got a black eye from that, didn't they?
King
Well, again, you had the big guy over there who was a legitimate businessman who was Howard Hughes. And Howard Hughes was going to bring respectability to that town. There was just no way because he was a respectable
Tyler
Was it done through negotiations, or they just started voluntarily recruiting in blacks, or was it supervising where they just sort of opened up the doors and let it be known that, hey, we're applying?
King
We left it with the local blacks there to go ahead and move from there.
Tyler
After this one, this was a one-shot picket, because they did respond afterwards, right?
King
Yeah, there had been a few random situations by the local people, but they didn't have enough troops. And it was too easy to intimidate them because they all had to have jobs, and the job scene over there, you could be washed out in little or nothing. So it was necessary then for them to be very careful about employment. Buck West, who was an M.D., was without question one of the outstanding persons of the movement. Buck died last year, and there was an editorial that someone sent me from Las Vegas—because they knew Buck and I were close friends—where they spoke of the great risks that he took. He had a local black paper over there. I've forgotten the name of it; it might have been the Voice or something like that.
Tyler
But it's gotten old, too, you know.
King
Well—
Tyler
Well, I mean, you know, it's not, like, new.
King
Our national bail agents association, which is called the Professional Bail Agents of the U.S., meets there once a year. And I go, I attend that meeting. So that's what throws me into Vegas, but other than that, you know, fine. I wouldn't have missed Vegas. I was over there during that whole period of time when we were trying to improve the situation. Now, of course, I think things are beginning to erode back in that there are not that many blacks that are involved at the poker tables and women at
Tyler
But that's all around the country, the backlash—in the professions, medical schools, everywhere.
King
Well, I remember because of the fact that I've been an officer of the organization. It's generally meant that I've had to go a day early and stay a day late, and we have always stayed at a Strip hotel. And this time, we're going to stay at one of the downtown hotels. I'll probably get a better feel for what's going on in the downtown, but the hotel will stay, that is, comparable by far to the hotels on the Strip. You know, those downtown hotels are just tremendous now. This one's called the Union Plaza. I have not been going into the places, but the downtown tended to change along with the Strip so that there were blacks that were working everyplace. But the last time I was in Vegas, I did not see many blacks that were working.
Tyler
I didn't either; I was there three weeks, four weeks ago now.
King
I just did not see them. If they're there, I don't know. I think it's—
Tyler
Very few.
King
—gone downhill. But the fight was waged, the door was opened. And now what has happened since then, I guess the backlash has come in.
Well, what about local politics again? You were involved with Poulson, a Republican, right?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Most blacks voted for Poulson?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
Well, let's see, up until Yorty, the mayor was dominated by Republicans, right?
King
Yeah, I guess [Fletcher] Bowron, prior to that he had been in— Bowron, I think, did three terms and—
Tyler
Frank [L.] Shaw was before him.
King
Yeah. Of course Shaw was—
Tyler
Was Shaw Republican?
King
I think Shaw was a Democrat. Poulson was in, I believe, two terms. And Poulson was such an odds-on favorite to win, and as far as the black community was concerned, they had gotten kind of flushed out when, in the prior mayor's race, when most of the blacks went against Poulson when—
Tyler
Why? In his second term? Or his last term?
King
For the second term. Most went against him. But—
Tyler
Why? Was this mid-fifties or—
King
Yeah, yeah. He had a turnaround situation. They went against him in his second race, and then they went for him when he lost. I'm talking about now a lot of the known blacks, those that were well known. They really locked
Tyler
Now, this is, what? Not the 1960?
King
Yeah, the 1961 race.
Tyler
But, wait a minute, I thought most blacks went for Yorty in that year.
King
Okay.
Tyler
You said that the black voter did, but the black leadership was with Poulson.
King
Okay, two things occurred. You had—
Tape Number: X, Side One
July 14, 1985
Tyler
Well, back on [Samuel W.] Yorty.
King
I'm absolutely convinced that [Norris] Poulson was very concerned when I decided that I was not going to support him. I don't know why he even seemed to notice it, because it didn't seem like to me it was going to be any big thing to me which way I went. But he was concerned that I was not going to be supporting him.
Tyler
Why did you shift from him to Yorty?
King
Well, the thing is, I wasn't able to get any tangible kind of things other than the social relationship that I had with the mayor.
Tyler
No commissions, do you mean, or what?
King
No—
Tyler
No jobs?
King
No, no commissions in the offering. There were virtually no blacks that were working in his administration, and I was simply concerned with making some things happen, and—
Tyler
Was the fire department crisis, which was big in the late fifties, a big factor?
King
Fire department crisis was a factor. We started hammering away at [John H.] Alderson, who at that time was the chief, on the basis that there should be some
Tyler
He didn't move on it aggressively?
King
Well, Poulson really was not able to handle that situation. The people in the fire department themselves had decided that they did not want to be living with blacks, and, of course, when you're in the fire department, you live with your crew. It meant overnight sleeping; it meant eating together, cooking, and all those other kind of things that really brought people very close together. So the fire department itself then became a major issue. There were some very intemperate remarks that were made that probably everybody could have done without. But Tom [Thomas G.] Neusom, who is now deceased, was president of the branch during a period of that fight.
Tyler
NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] branch?
King
Yeah, NAACP branch. He led that in a very skillful way. Tom was a very bright lawyer.
Tyler
Talking about Tom [Thomas] Bradley?
King
No, I'm talking about Tom Neusom.
Oh, Tom Neusom, okay.
King
And we put on picket line after picket line in front of the fire department headquarters, which was downtown L.A., and various other fire facilities.
Tyler
Was this strictly a city operation? Did the county fire department come under attack?
King
No. It was strictly a city operation. The county fire department was no different than the city, except that it was the city operation that we were involved with. As time went on— And Poulson really didn't make much of an effort to handle that situation; I think he kind of probably had the idea that sooner or later it would dry up and go away. Then you had [William H.] Parker, who was chief of police, who had a reputation that was a little bit different than the person himself. Parker was not one who was willing to make many changes as far as integration was concerned. He took the position that some blacks should go up in the department but that basically they should be in charge of black units and that there should be no cars in the city of Los Angeles that were black and white on the inside. It was all right to be black and white on the outside. But black officers riding with white officers was not something that was to come to pass very easily.
Tyler
Well, he said that officers in partnership was a voluntary choice, and he wasn't going to force integration;
King
Yeah, we're going pretty well seven or eight years prior to that, when Parker was well in command of everything and clearly was tantamount to being a— J. Edgar Hoover would be the only model that I could apply: J. Edgar Hoover to the national, as he was to the city. He was a good police officer, though. But the question of his sensitivity as far as blacks was concerned, I think, was extremely limited and extremely naive, because I think that the effect of his policies— You'd have to say that all of the things that occurred during his administration, given his strength, probably would have to fall at his feet. He had one woman who was sort of a community liaison—
Tyler
Vivian Strange?
King
Vivian Strange. And as far as I knew, there was no other linkage—
Tyler
Tom [Thomas] Bradley in the fifties was public relations officer. Of course there was a little politics behind that, hoping he would get into conflict with the black community over police-community relations.
King
I don't really remember that part too much, except
Tyler
Please both ends? The black community and the police department.
King
Well, Tom had greater ambitions, and given that, I would not ever see him drawing a line and saying, "Hey, look, don't go past this line." He was in, let's see, at that time, well, a little bit later, he was in night law school, and you have to give credit where credit is due; he worked his way up, both in the department by being intelligent and being able to pass the examinations, and by being able to stay out of trouble with his superiors. And he worked his way on through law school and took the bar and passed the bar.
Vivian, though, is the person that I had the best recollection with as far as being the link to Parker. Vivian was a very, very nice person, a good police officer, and seemingly had pretty good access to the structure. Her husband was a nice guy, too. I think he long ago passed, quite some years ago. And he was a nice guy.
So basically both of them were. He was in the bonding business for a period of time, but it's a pretty tough business, and maybe the fact that his wife had prior linkage with the police department tended to inhibit his ability to function; I'm not too sure, but he was really a
So there were these problems, allegations of police— Well, most of them, I'd say, were blown up a little bit more than they actually were.
Tyler
Now, Poulson didn't want to tangle with Parker? Did he leave Parker alone? Was that part of the thrust of your—
King
Yeah, Parker—
Tyler
—the black community's grievance?
King
Parker was really the heavy as far as Los Angeles in terms of balancing any scales. Whatever it was that you had, Parker could be the decisive factor for an almost balanced scale to go down on one side and up on the other. So nobody really wanted to tackle him. Plus, the memories of the thirties and the—
Tyler
'Forty-nine to '50 [W. Arthur] Worton crisis?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
The bombing and the police corruption?
King
So everybody really wanted to say, let's kind of support Parker and support the police department, because we know what happened before and we wanted to be a reasonably clean city and we don't want the easterners coming in, taking over, that kind of situation. So Parker in a sense, he had a lot of plus points as a police
So we come along to near the end of the year in 1960, and it looks like that there's just no way in the world for Poulson to lose. And because of the fact that the blacks thought that they would be able to negotiate some commissions and other kind of things with him. So this, of course, was prior to the time that there were any blacks in the city council; there were no elected blacks there, and city hall to a large extent was just lily-white. The few people that were on, there was some— Always, traditionally, there's been a police commissioner. Then there was an art commissioner, who was very deserving of that particular thing because he knew an awful lot about architecture and building.
Was that Paul Waxstein?
King
That was Paul [R.] Williams.
Tyler
Paul Williams.
King
Yeah. And I believe that there was a third person on who was on the [Los Angeles City] Housing [Authority] and he was a fellow who was associated with the Golden State [Mutual Life Insurance Company].
Tyler
What, William Nickerson [Jr.]?
King
No, the number three man over there. Name kind of—
Tyler
Beavers?
King
Beavers, yeah. You hit it right on the head.
Tyler
Is it Leroy Beavers?
King
Well, no—
Tyler
No, George [A.] Beavers.
King
I thought it was George, yeah.
So that was about the extent of that situation, but most of the ministers decided to go along with Poulson, and almost right down the line, on the basis that he was absolutely invincible. The campaign started, and a few of us went over and met with Sam. He had a little law office right off of Wilshire Boulevard, kind of up on the second floor, third floor, and we'd go over there, and we would sit and talk with him.
Tyler
That would be you and who?
Everette [M.] Porter and Delo O. Gray, who was a dentist, and I think maybe one other person that off the top of my head I just can't recall his name, but I'll think of his name in a minute.
Tyler
Hawkins's brother?
King
No, no. Hawkins's people were all with, right down the line—
Tyler
It wasn't Merv [Mervyn M.] Dymally—
King
No, no, no. None of the traditional politicians. Hawkins was with Poulson.
Tyler
You mean Augustus [F.] Hawkins?
King
Augustus Hawkins and his brother—
Tyler
Frank? Is it Frank Hawkins?
King
Uh, no, not Frank. But anyway, he too was a commissioner. He was on the public works commission [Los Angeles City Board of Public Works Commissioners], which was a full-time job that paid—
Tyler
Who was this now?
King
Gus Hawkins's brother.
Tyler
What was his brother's name? Frank, or—
King
No, it isn't Frank. I may think of it in a moment. [Edward A. Hawkins] So we went over and we talked to him. We told him [Yorty] what our concerns were, that we were concerned with having more black commissioners appointed than there had ever been in the history of the
Tyler
Do you recall who that deputy was?
King
Yeah, it's a woman who lived in Pacoima. Ethel is her first name. [Ethel C. Bryant] She had been with him all during his congressional period. And we talked with Ethel, and Ethel says, "The man is A-OK. He's worth taking the risk on." And we started waging the battle. There were probably a half a dozen people who ran in that primary and Yorty did not even figure to make the runoff. There was only this very, very small group of us that never got over a dozen blacks that were really supporting him. And all the name blacks in town—even though four years before, they had not been openly and notoriously supporting Poulson—this time were down there supporting Poulson, because of the fact that they thought Poulson was a shoo-in and they simply wanted to be with the winner.
Tyler
Thinking that they might get some rewards, officers? But Poulson hadn't made any promises?
King
We had talked about having a city human relations commission, and Poulson, I think, had agreed that it would be A-OK to put a city human relations commission. But even
Tyler
With John Buggs.
King
—whereas those of us that were asking for it were asking for it so we could implement [laughter] what the county was embarking on and was doing.
Tyler
Because the county had John Buggs, who, through Kenneth Hahn, was saying, "Here is some county power; use it to promote your interests." Open-housing, the school situation—you know, the Crenshaw Neighbors [Inc.]—the schools, the housing. But the city was not doing that; it was clear in the fire department. Like, say, Buggs could have moved on the county fire department—the county sheriff, right?—if the black community went to him and said, "Hey, this is our concern. You are the man to investigate and bring out the facts and put pressure."
King
So you do have this odd situation of the majority of the blacks out there that were visible. At the beginning of that race, they were out there supporting Poulson. Now, what occurred was that on election night in the primary, we were standing there watching the television, and we were on the second floor down on Wilshire Boulevard—place didn't even have an elevator; we were over a Thrifty Drug [and Discount] Store, I believe. It was a big, huge room, and
Primary comes up and we're standing up there watching the tube, and one guy, who was a Harvard [University] graduate, and he was a [councilperson]—it's been a long time, I can't remember his name now [Patrick D. McGee]—he was standing on up at his headquarters in the [San Fernando] Valley, thanking the people for having voted for him, because it appeared as though that Poulson had not gotten the majority of the votes (fifty percent plus one) and it looked like he was going to be second. And here we were behind him and creeping up on him, and at the very end, we came in second. Now, we had had people put up offices, little storefront offices all over. We didn't have any money; we had shot our whole wad all the way, and then a most unusual situation occurred. We found an issue. We didn't have an issue.
Tyler
You mean the trash?
The trash issue.
Tyler
How did you stumble on it, come up on it, or what?
King
Somebody walked into headquarters; it was a woman—and I'm trying to remember who, I—and she laid down this report. And she was part of the campaign; she was ultimately appointed a commissioner [laughter] and stayed with the whole thing. She says, "I don't want to separate the cans, and I don't think most housewives do."
Sam looked at the book. We're all sitting around there. The book was thick as a Webster, large Webster's dictionary, and he goes and he locks up and he reads this report. We then had an issue.
Poulson was not talking to anyone, not responding to anything, not responding to any charges or whatever, and Poulson had lost his voice and was unable to speak effectively. He had laryngitis, and it just came from nowhere. And here we had an issue for every housewife, and an issue, really, I guess, for a lot of men, because they had to sort that stuff out, too; they had to put the cans out. And this report— Sam just went to the tube every time he could get, and he talked about this report and that there was no need and it wasn't cost-efficient. And at that time, you put your cans out, I think, every three weeks, and you put your trash out every week. And that went on, and that became a major issue.
Because it was too much trouble to separate. That hit everybody.
King
And it was—
Tyler
Remember, because women in '60, that's just around the time when they stopped burning the trash, was it?
King
Yeah, yeah, they'd stopped burning the trash.
Tyler
I remember those incinerators; you had to burn the trash.
King
Yeah, I used to enjoy the incinerator. That was just fine. But the women took that up, and I think for a lot of men, too, that that was an issue. And Poulson had taken a policy position that that was the way to go.
Now, in the meantime, we had had Sam over and over and over in the black community continuously committing himself to what he was going to do and talking about his record. And his record was good. Now, he was anti the Kennedys a hundred and ten percent. But the Kennedys really never came up as an issue, because the strange thing was most of the blacks, the name blacks that had been supporting [John F.] Kennedy, turned around and started supporting Poulson.
Tyler
You mean, turned around and started supporting Yorty, or Poulson?
King
Poulson. It was the people out here who voted for Yorty, not the leadership. The black community people. Which showed that again that the black leadership was not
Tyler
But Yorty opposed Kennedy, and the same people voted for Kennedy in '60.
King
Absolutely, but Yorty didn't have any juice when he opposed him. Nobody knew who Yorty was. Yorty was no longer in Congress, so—
Tyler
Now, what about Yorty and Parker?
King
Okay, the word—
Tyler
The charge that Yorty claimed he would get Parker under control or fire him—any truth to that? I've heard that the local papers, or Yorty made speech after speech, but the papers didn't publish it.
King
Yorty made the affirmative decision, and we were all a part of that decision process, that there was absolutely no way for us to fight Poulson and Parker. To do so would mean that you would lose absolutely too much in terms of the marginal support. Because Parker had a large constituency. Now, in the [San Fernando] Valley, Yorty was to go to the Valley as he did, and he was to say out there, "You've been forgotten by city hall. You're forty miles away from there, and nothing is done out here for you, and yet you represent the largest growth potential, as far as the Valley is concerned." And there were people in the Valley that were supporting him and carrying him around just as there were those few of us who were here. In the
Tyler
Ben [Benjamin O.] Davis, Sr.?
King
—had just been appointed in World War II, and that was Ben Davis, Sr. There had only been just comparatively a few blacks that had gone to West Point up to that time, certainly less than fifty. In fact, by 1950, it probably was even closer to ten. You had [to] be back in pre-1900, then Ben [Benjamin O. Davis] Jr., and then a few after that, so there were very few. In fact, it's still significant today to get a black appointed to one of the academies. And now they have multiple academies. They have more academies now than they did then. They didn't have an air force academy, for instance, back in those times, and I'm not too sure they had a coast guard [academy]; they had a naval and army.
So he [Yorty] had a record to run on, and it just so happened that he and I were in a bar one night, and the bar is now called Memory Lane, and it was called Memory Lane
Tyler
This is with Yorty?
King
Yeah, yeah. He was there. And Sam made some brief comments, saying that these kind of rousts should not occur in the city of Los Angeles. And we stayed there for a little bit, and then the LAPD officer said, "Look, we better go, because we may have a problem." And we stepped on out of there and jumped in Sam's car; he had a Chrysler, and we jumped in the car, and we split. But he had made these comments outside the bar, that this kind of situation should not go on, and it picked up from that bar, hit the gossip columns, hit the local newspapers, and the black community, and one thing led to another that he was going to somehow fire Parker.
Tyler
Well, actually, now, and I've read some of the literature on this, Yorty charged that Poulson had the city machine moving against him (which included the police commission [Los Angeles City Board of Police Commissioner]) and several of the police commissioners
King
Yeah, it was publicized—
Tyler
—because I got it from the newspapers, that maybe all of that gave the impression in the black community [laughter] that he was going to get Parker under control and the police under control. I've heard people say this over and over, but I have not seen it in any of the literature. I've seen in the literature the conflict with the police commission and several members he said he was going to fire if he was ever elected.
King
He said he was going to fire all of them but one.
Tyler
Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if that's—
King
And that was a woman; I've forgotten her name.
Tyler
Albro? No, no, Albro was on there when Parker was elected in '50, and she was the pivotal person dying
King
Oh, yeah. It generated all over the community.
Tyler
My impression had been that this is why the majority of blacks went for Yorty—because of this Parker business, despite his prior record of denouncing Kennedy. Unless, as you point out, that the Kennedy record wasn't— Yorty didn't have a big profile then, so it was of no consequence.
King
That's right.
Tyler
Because I know it came out in '60 and this may have been just before he [was] elected, but Poulson then wasn't sharp enough to pick up on it to use it against him.
King
Yeah, they didn't use it. They didn't use it. You got to remember, too, now, Poulson was a Republican and he hadn't said anything favorable about Kennedy either.
Tyler
That may have been [it] too. Do you think that had an impact on blacks moving toward a Democratic candidate?
King
No, because basically the leadership was going with Poulson.
Tyler
Yeah, but then Kennedy was talking some civil rights stuff, and blacks got carried away with Kennedy on civil rights.
King
They didn't get carried away with Yorty on that
Tyler
How do you account for that? Did he ever tell you, or was it ever—
King
Oh, I don't know. He may have been the victim of some of the sort of insider Democrats. That was sort of an insider group, and he was a maverick.
Tyler
But now, back in '57, '56, he went [to] Fresno and charged the California Democratic Council with fellow-traveling and communist infiltration, which he even charged Culbert [L.] Olson with, he and Jack B. Tenney.
King
I recall Jack Tenney very well.
Tyler
Jack B. Tenney, in some oral interviews with this same UCLA oral history project, charged that Yorty had always been a Republican, but he was Democratic because he was in a Democratic district and that the only way he could get elected was on a Democratic label. Do you know any truth to that? Has Yorty ever told you anything like
King
I would agree. I would agree.
Tyler
That Republican politics was really his brand but he used a Democratic label?
King
He is a registered Republican now. So, I mean, there is, if you look at it full circle. [laughter] He's a registered Republican.
Tyler
Did he ever tell you that then, during that time period?
King
Well, I was a Republican at that time supporting him as a Democrat, and he was perfectly comfortable with that. And he was also perfectly comfortable with my stand on rights, on the civil rights issues. No problem at all. Now, there were so few blacks that were supporting, name blacks that were supporting Yorty, until when he was elected—election night, I'm not talking about the primary, now; I'm talking about May 31 or June 1 or 2 or something like that—the majority of the blacks, the name blacks, were over at the Ambassador Hotel on election night, over there with Poulson.
Tyler
This is the primary or the final—
King
The runoff.
Tyler
So wait a minute. When Yorty came up second in the primary, that didn't generate a group of blacks abandoning Poulson?
No.
Tyler
The line stayed the same, it didn't change anything?
King
It didn't change them.
Tyler
Now, so when Yorty is elected, what happens in the aftermath? How did the black leadership and the masses deal with that? How does Yorty build a political base then, or black leadership class? Or what happens?
King
Well—
Tyler
What would be the long-range consequences of this—
King
The long-range consequence was that it established a new political, somewhat of a political base for some brand-new faces, as far as city hall was concerned and as far as some practical politics were concerned. A new little hierarchy was created, and it was pretty close to invincible, except that a few concessions had to be made.
Tyler
In what regard?
King
Well, okay, first of all, we had gotten these commitments out of Sam, that he was going to appoint blacks. But Sam was not about to appoint blacks who were not loyal to him. He was not about to run out and try. He made it pretty clear; he was not about to run out—
Tyler
He was a partisan politician.
King
[laughter] Yeah, and go and proselyte the people who had tried to kill him and bring them in, even though
Tyler
I mean, what was there? Why were they coming over there?
King
Because the fact that they just thought they had that much control over the black community and, regardless who went in, that they were going to have their impact on him.
Tyler
So they were coming to negotiate with Yorty since he had won?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
I mean, at least they felt they could negotiate.
King
Yeah, right. Right.
Tyler
That they had something to negotiate with.
King
Yeah. They didn't have anything to negotiate with, because the black community—
Tyler
Had what? Had voted contrary to them.
King
—had gone with Yorty. And the black leadership had gone with Poulson.
Tyler
Now, this is something I didn't know. And this is the genesis of the black leadership conflict with Yorty and
King
Well, that's exactly what occurred. And Yorty—
Tyler
Because they had the black— The established black leadership was never in harmony with Yorty.
King
Never.
Tyler
It wasn't that Yorty stabbed them in the back and then they were never— Now I see the genesis of all of this stuff.
King
They never were supportive, no.
Tyler
All of this leadership criticism of Yorty. It wasn't— [laughter]
King
It wasn't valid.
Tyler
[laughter] They had been on the losing end from the start.
King
That's it. That is it.
Tyler
So since Yorty was a partisan politician—
Tape Number: X, Side Two
July 14, 1985
Tyler
Okay, well, go ahead. So, I mean, what happened when these— Who were the leaders that come running up the steps there at Yorty headquarters late?
King
One of the past presidents of the NAACP—
Tyler
That was who?
King
That was Dawkins.
Tyler
Maurice Dawkins?
King
Yeah, uh—
Tyler
This is 1960? 'Sixty-one.
King
'Sixty-one. Well, you—
Tyler
Was [Leon H.] Washington on the [Los Angeles] Sentinel? They were with Poulson?
King
Wash at the Sentinel, I cannot remember, but I don't recall any real support out of Wash.
Tyler
What about Hawkins? He was a Democrat.
King
Hawkins was down the line with Poulson, one hundred and ten percent.
Tyler
Despite [the fact] he was a Democrat and Poulson was a Republican.
King
Absolutely. They figured that Poulson was going to be a total winner. Plus Hawkins's brother had been given a plum job as part of the deal that had worked—
Tyler
By Poulson.
By Poulson.
A very good job, and it's still a good job as far as city hall's concerned now. And that's on the [Los Angees City] Public [Works] Commission, full-time job. So none of that whole hierarchy was ever with Yorty. Now, what did he do, okay? He went in and he appointed the people basically who were loyal to him from the word number one, go. He appointed Everette Porter—
Tyler
Wait a minute, hang on.
King
Why don't you back it up a little bit and test it? [pause]
Tyler
Okay, go ahead.
King
He appointed E. [Edward] V. Hill—
Tyler
To what positions? Everette Porter to what?
King
Police commission.
Tyler
Okay.
King
There had always been a traditional black spot on the police—
Tyler
Right, since the thirties, yeah—
King
Yeah. E. V. Hill—
Tyler
He was a hard campaigner for Yorty?
King
E. V. Hill was right with us—
Tyler
From the start?
King
Yeah. Good Republican. [laughter] Black Republican.
From Houston, Texas.
King
[laughter] There you are.
Tyler
He dabbled in politics there, ran for office, but anyway—
King
He appointed, I think, seven right away. No such thing had ever been heard of, seven black commissioners.
Tyler
Were you appointed to anything?
King
I went in and talked with Sam. He called me in and he says, "You've been loyal to me." This was after the campaign and there were no real deals cut before. It was just that, hey, this is your team; if we go in, we all go in together.
Tyler
So that was just sort of understood.
King
It was a clear understanding.
Tyler
And that was a breakthrough in itself, that you didn't have to even go through— Well, you said you went up to his office and discussed that blacks should have some power, and he said okay, so—
King
Yeah, we got commitments that he would appoint a significant number of people in his administration, and we had a general understanding that it was going to be more than had ever been appointed by every mayor in the history of the town, all of them put together. I went into Sam's office, and—
Tyler
Was this before he made, after he made these other
King
After he was sworn in.
Tyler
After he made these other black appointments?
King
No, no. He was into— This was right after he was sworn in. The appointments were made afterwards, and we had a conversation and I said, "Sam, it would be my preference that my mother be on a commission at this point rather than I." He says, "Well," he said, "if that is your choice, fine." So we set up an appointment, and my mother had been very active in many things in Los Angeles, a very intelligent lady, and I carried her down a few days later and—
Tyler
What's her name?
King
Leontyne [Butler] King.
Tyler
Right.
King
We had always been in business, and she had been in the social columns and had been the sponsor of black girls' and young women's clubs and half a dozen years in a row was Best Dressed Woman in Los Angeles. As I had mentioned, she was a buyer for a dress shop, so she knew how to dress, and she also knew how to buy. So she could buy the ultra-expensive things and knew how to go to the wholesale shops and the wholesale area and buy those things, because when she was a much younger woman, that was her job. Sam had never met my mother, so we went down, we went in, and there
Tyler
But it wasn't any problem she couldn't handle anyway on the commission if she knew of different, you know—
Right. So what happened was she went on that library commission, and she stayed on there for twelve years.
Tyler
Really?
King
And she turned this town around. There were virtually no black books in any library.
Tyler
This is 1960.
King
Right.
Tyler
Miriam Matthews hadn't—
King
Matthews was down at the Vernon Branch, and the Vernon Branch was getting ready to be sold. The ground was going to be sold. [laughter] The branch that was over near Hooper [Avenue] had been knocked down, demolished, and the ground was up and being sold because the growth was in the Valley. And she [Leontyne Butler King] talked back and forth with Sam at that point so that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding that she was going to take a very militant and strong approach.
Tyler
To keep library service and buildings in the black community?
King
And black books. Because black books was a real issue at that time. See, there weren't— None of the white libraries would take a black book in.
Tyler
Oh, really?
King
Yeah. None. And it was clearly understood that she
Tyler
So it was like the whole concession was that the Vernon Branch would be the black collection for the city; would it be in one [area], the black area?
King
Well, her position was that they should be in every library, and it took years to do it. But the fact that she was there for twelve years—
Tyler
She could follow through.
King
Follow through. And it was only a—
Tyler
In fact, she could stay there when Yorty served two terms.
King
Yeah, yeah, right. Well, he served three terms.
Tyler
Oh, that's right; he served from '61 to '73. That's right. That's right. Three terms.
King
And she was reappointed each time and stayed there for the entire twelve-year period that he was in. She did a tremendous job. Tremendous job. Not only for the black community, but also for the white community.
Tyler
In terms of getting those books out there. Now, when Bradley came in, did she resign or Bradley dropped her?
King
Oh, she resigned when Bradley came in.
Tyler
Was that because she was just through, or she didn't want to work with Bradley, or what?
No, well, politically, we're a political family, and when you lose, you should go. When Bradley went in some twelve years later— By that time, Sam had appointed me to a commission. In fact, I'm almost absolutely certain this is correct, that never in the history of the city of Los Angeles has there ever been a mother and a son on commissions at the same time.
Tyler
What commission were you on? When did you—
King
I was president of the [Los Angeles] City Human Relations Commission.
Tyler
Oh, that's right!
King
And I was there for five years. But, by example, when Tom won, I was in Tom's office at nine o'clock the following morning after he won, having won the night before, and I handed him my resignation.
Tyler
Well, that's a part of the tradition, isn't it?
King
Well.
Tyler
Either get fired [laughter] or—
King
Well, there were some holdovers. Tom asked me, he said, "Well, do you want to talk about it?" I said no. [laughter] Hey, when you win, you win. When you lose, you lose. I mean, I believe in the system. So—
Tyler
Because you don't want him asking you for any political favors—
King
I don't know that I was [laughter] in much of a
Tyler
Well, I mean that your political skills and connections were of some consequence.
King
Well, I think that that tended to enhance my credibility at all levels.
Tyler
[laughter] Unless you felt terribly guilty because you had been battling for your winner and he lost; you had—
King
I didn't have any guilt.
Tyler
[laughter] Your hands weren't clean.
King
My hands were perfectly clean, and they stayed clean.
Tyler
[laughter] But politically, your hands were in the Yorty camp, you know what I'm saying?
King
I was the first person to resign. First person to resign. Now, of course, when you resign, you still stay on until they are able to get a replacement. In other words, you don't pull a game. Now, I did it with integrity. Hey, I resign; go ahead and replace me. Soon as the replacement is there, great. I will serve, you know—
Tyler
Yeah, to make the orderly transition.
King
Right, and that is exactly what I did. And I think that that's what you ought to do politically, but when you win, you should, without question, okay, win the
Tyler
The patronage.
King
I believe in it. I believe in it. [laughter] I do not believe you go out and reward your enemies. Now, that doesn't mean—
Tyler
A lot of people don't understand that, though. You know, that politics is partisan politics in America.
King
And I like the game. And again, as I say, that following morning, I was there at nine o'clock. And would you believe Tom Bradley was in his office? And he had just won the night before. I went to his city council office, knocked on the door—
Tyler
—and he was there.
King
He was there. Handed him my resignation. I think some of the people that were in the office at that time thought I was coming down to see if I could cut some kind of a deal.
Tyler
[laughter] You surprised them all, huh?
King
Well, I didn't realize that anybody would be thinking that too much, but they buzzed and buzzed all around the place that I was there.
Tyler
But now, okay. Shifting back here, what happened when these cats came pitter-pattering upstairs to talk with Yorty later that night when he won? I mean, what happened from there?
Absolutely nothing but the height of cordiality. They did not get in during the entire twelve-year period.
Tyler
Again—
King
Except as to two concessions that we had to make.
Tyler
Which were?
King
Number one, we had to do something with Hawkins, because Hawkins had a power base. No question about it, he had a power base all the way across the line—this is prior to Hawkins, now, going—
Tyler
Did you mean power base in terms of the black voters or the power base was in what dimensions? The scale? What do you—
King
He had a broad power base. He had been in the assembly for many years and had good linkage everyplace and very, very few negatives, all right? And it was also pretty clear that all of us were still going to back Gus going to Congress. Gus was running the next year, which was '62, and—
Tyler
So you made clear lines of distinction there that, okay, we clashed in this deal, but other areas we don't have to clash in, or whatever.
King
Yeah. And we had to have a situation where we didn't have Gus knocking the administration, because Gus was a pivotal situation in that there were a lot of folks who weren't that supportive of Gus only on the basis that
Tyler
H. Claude Hudson.
King
Yeah, had been raising a fog in connection with police brutality and nothing being done in connection with all these abuses and other kind of things. So we had to figure out a way to shut him down.
Tyler
Elbert T. Hudson.
King
So our guy who was on the police commission—
Tyler
[Herbert A.] Greenwood?
King
No, Greenwood came up later. Our guy who was on the police commission—
Tyler
Was it the black lady under Yorty?
King
Wait a minute, Greenwood was on prior to that.
Tyler
With Poulson.
King
With Poulson, yeah. Right. With Poulson; that's when Greenwood was on. And by the way, they'd almost all come out of the same law office: Porter, Greenwood had both worked, I believe, for Walter—
Tyler
Gordon?
—Walter [L.] Gordon [Jr.]. And then when they moved, they moved over to the same building where Gus was on Forty-second [Street].
Tyler
Yeah, but Walt Gordon had been a partner with Loren Miller.
King
If so, I don't ever remember that.
Tyler
Yeah, earlier.
King
I don't ever remember that.
Tyler
Michael Zinzun is in their office now. Or they share offices with Walter [L.] Gordon III, or one of them in the Gordon family.
King
Okay, maybe that's the third—
Tyler
Oh, you're talking about Senior Gordon.
King
Well, Junior.
Tyler
Yeah, Walter, yeah, okay.
King
Yeah, Junior, who's about seventy-five now.
Tyler
Yeah. You're trying to figure out who your commissioner was, police commissioner?
King
Well, no, no, no. Porter came off and El went on.
Tyler
That's El Hudson.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Elbert T. Hudson.
King
Right. Elbert's a close friend and has been; we were in the air force together; he was a pilot down at Tuskegee [Institute].
Oh, really? Great—
King
—and just a great all-around guy. My wife and his wife are cousins, but that didn't ever have much to do with anything else; it just is that they were cousins. And when he went on, that shut down H. Claude Hudson, shut him flat down. So by two deals, if you—I withdraw the word "deals"—but by two moves, we were able to nullify—
Tyler
—two major power blocks.
King
That's right. That were involved. If they had joined the other power blocks—
Tyler
You'd have been in real trouble.
King
Right. So this neutralized those two power blocks. And things went on very smoothly; so smoothly, in fact, until Dymally and his whole crowd and Hawkins and everybody else four years later, they said, we'll handle the campaign, in effect.
Tyler
Of Yorty?
King
And they all came in on Yorty's side because of the fact they wanted to be with the winner.
Tyler
So they came in at the second campaign.
King
All of them.
Tyler
But you and who else were the key blacks at the first campaign—the '61?
King
A guy by the name of Richard Jones—
Tyler
Oh, he later served on the [Los Angeles Unified
King
No, not that Jones.
Tyler
Oh, that's Reverend Jones.
King
That was Reverend James [E.] Jones.
Tyler
Right. Right.
King
Richard Jones went into the mayor's office, full-time job—
Tyler
Right, right.
King
—as executive assistant.
Tyler
Right.
King
Another guy, Willard Murray—
Tyler
Oh, yeah, I know, I know who Murray is.
King
He went in as an executive assistant.
Tyler
He was an original Yorty cat then.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
I know him.
King
He wasn't as heavy into it as we were.
Tyler
He quit his job later as an engineer to go fuller time in politics.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
He is one of the committeemen, does the editorials—
King
And what he puts out—
Tyler
—of the Democratic paper.
King
Yeah, the Community, uh—
—Democrat.
King
Democrat, yeah. And he works on staff for Dymally full time.
Tyler
Along with Johnny Otis and his wife at the Hawthorne office. [laughter] But anyway—
King
Let's see, who else was a part of that group? A woman by the name of Moore— What is her first name? Can't think of her first name. She's a Ph.D and also she's heavy in churches. [Marguerite P. Moore] We had one other preacher, and it's hard to remember his name. [Frederick Douglass Ferrell]
Tyler
Hardwick?
King
No, no. Hardwick got involved with us and worked with us—
Tyler
Is this Archie, or the other Hardwick?
King
This is [Joseph] Hardwick that's out on the south end. He worked with us hand and glove, all the way through, but was not a part of the original, the original—
Tyler
First campaigners.
King
Yeah. Group of ten. There weren't over ten. Let's see, who else can I think of? Who was part of that first group? I guess it's kind of hard to pull any more off the top of my head.
Tyler
What were the motives of this second team of blacks that came in the second campaign?
They wanted to get a piece of the action, and they knew Yorty couldn't be beat.
Tyler
He was going to go for another term because there was no other person in the office that can compete with him, right?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
But, uh—
King
They received a sum total of nothing.
Tyler
What do you mean? Because—
King
They got involved in the campaign all the way across the board, but Sam kept his same team.
Tyler
So wait a minute. By that time wasn't it '62 that, let's see, Dymally first went into office, '62, didn't he?
King
Right.
Tyler
To the Twenty-ninth [Assembly] District, was it?
King
I've forgotten the district, but he replaced Gus [Hawkins].
Tyler
Yeah. So that he was just expanding his power base.
King
Yeah, well, one thing about it, it was clear that there was no one that could beat Yorty at that time. So they all joined on in.
Tyler
But now, this other team, were they predominantly— Dymally—did he start out as a maverick, an independent, or he had ensconced himself with— What's his name? Jesse
King
Talking about Dymally?
Tyler
Yeah.
King
Jesse Unruh was sort of the backbone of all of them, to some extent, because he brought money into the campaigns.
Tyler
That started in '60 with Kennedy.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
They started with Kennedy, the Kennedy campaign, and then jumped into local office. Jesse Unruh rounded them up to work the black community with Kennedy. Yeah, that's the way that happened, yeah.
King
Did a good job, too. And they moved on from there. And Sam was not a part of any of that.
Tyler
In fact, he was rebelling against that inside crowd like Unruh. I mean, he was a maverick in regards to Unruh and the CDC [California Democratic Council], which they depended on.
King
Right. The—
Tyler
But now, as I recall, Dymally told me that he and Murray were some early politicians— Well, they started with Kennedy in '60, the Kennedy campaign in L.A. But Murray was hooked up with Yorty; Dymally was on the other side—
King
Not during the Kennedy situation; we hadn't even
Tyler
Oh, that's how? [laughter] He was looking for a candidate?
King
That's right. We found Sam.
Tyler
Oh, really? Is that the way it went?
King
That's right. Sam didn't find us.
Tyler
I get the wrong impression from the story.
King
Now, he always—
Tyler
I think I've heard this story before.
King
—wanted to run. He always wanted to run.
Tyler
He was just a private lawyer.
King
That's right. Lawyer on the second, third floor off of Wilshire [Boulevard]. Yeah, we found Sam Yorty. Sam Yorty did not find us.
Tyler
Then bring you in on it. You brought him in on it. [laughter] Either you or somebody else has to have—I've heard this before—
King
Well, we admit you know, trying to find—
Tyler
I think Willard Murray may have told me this, I'm not certain.
Willard wasn't in the vicinity action at all at that point.
Tyler
He wasn't an insider?
King
He wasn't an insider. He became an insider, sort of later on in the situation. But our little hardcore group found Sam Yorty. That's why Sam Yorty never gave up that group. Sam Yorty was not running for mayor, except he always had the attitude he wanted to run. You know, he had filed for mayor as far back as 1936. He always had political ambitions. You know, he was always a horse—
Tyler
But he never had that base, eh?
King
—always a horse looking for a track. Yeah, we met with him, and hey, that's where it moved from. Absolutely a fortuitous situation. Everette, downtown, just happened to see him. He said, "God damn, there's a possibility."
Tyler
[laughter] There's ours, ready to go to race; you know he's ready to run. Now, Yorty in his first term, did he establish good credentials with the black community? Were there conflicts that broke out that were to be notable conflicts or divisions that remained or did not heal over, or what?
King
Well—
Tyler
Would you say that Yorty upheld his mandate, and the black community's expectations were met, or what?
King
Well, seeing all these commissioners being
Tyler
These were unpaid positions.
King
Oh, no. They're not paid. People will work harder for nonpaid positions, if they will assist them in their total agenda, than they will for a paid position. And you see it all the time; in fact, right now, you see that people are fighting hard for those kind of things. In fact, it's almost easier to get a person a paid job than it is to get a commission.
Tyler
Oh, because there's only so few, yeah.
King
Right?
Tyler
Yeah.
King
So it has many kind of impacts and, at that time, this was all brand-new, in terms of the number of commissioners. Today we don't have many more commissioners than there were—
Tyler
Despite Bradley's—
King
Yeah, yeah.
Tyler
—incumbency.
King
Right, right. Not many more today than there were then. And it was well represented. Not that it is not well represented now. But go back to the early sixties, I mean, Sam Yorty kept his commitments. And Sam Yorty would,
Tyler
Well, now, what about the continued conflicts with the police? You had the Muslim shoot-out April 27, '62; the Birmingham threats in L.A. You have Birmingham demonstrations, Maurice Dawkins, '63. You had the '64 Griffith Park race riot and Parker's reaction; some demonstrations [were] occurring. What is it that started creating the strains with the black community that became a problem? Since you were just talking about these commissioners [and] since these commissioners were not as well known as some of the more public black leaders of older established reputations, did that play a role in people not perceiving what Yorty had done?
King
No. Because they moved as any other commissioner would have and became prominent and became known. The seat itself had that kind of impact. For instance, Marguerite [P.] Justice was put on the commission; she was put on the CRA commission. People don't even remember that she was on the CRA commission.
Tyler
That's the Commission of Human Relations?
King
No, [Los Angeles] City [Community] Redevelopment Agency.
Tyler
Oh, okay.
King
And in there she moved in at a later date and went
Tyler
The L.A. Sentinel.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Plus, he was a sportswriter for the Sentinel.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Logical choice.
King
And he had a lot to say about what was happening with the Sentinel over there. Sam got along quite well with most folk. What caused the downfall of Sam, I think to some extent, if there was a major situation, it was that he wanted to— [It] was at that situation where he ran for president.
Tyler
What year?
King
Well, let's see.
'Sixty-four? 'Sixty-eight?
King
Maybe it was '68. I think it probably was '68. I can't really recall, get it clear in my mind, but I think so. He ran, went back, ran in the New Jersey, in the New Hampshire primary, and that kind of situation. And, of course, he ran for governor—
Tyler
What year?
King
—and started late. Can't put my finger on it. Might have been '66.
Tyler
So what—
King
And he had to run in the Democratic primary. He was a maverick as far as the Democrats were concerned.
Tyler
So, what, you think that those things hurt him?
King
Yeah, yeah.
Tyler
Why? Locally? Why?
King
Well, it looked like he was losing his interest in being mayor. That's to some extent one of the problems.
Tyler
Well, okay. Now, what's Yorty's role? How do you see him in the events or crisis that led up to the Watts riot? How do you see him in that whole event?
King
I don't think that he really expected that situation. Now, when you roll the clock back and you go to the Muslim situation that occurred at Fifty-eighth [Street] and Broadway— Let's see, what was the date on that?
Tyler
April 27, 1962.
Yeah. I think that was really an eye-opener, I think, to everyone, that there were even those possibilities as far as the black community was concerned. But, I—
Tyler
Did Yorty know the LAPD was going to raid the mosque, or what?
King
You know, I spoke with him just a few months ago about that situation. (Sam and I occasionally will get together for one reason or another.) He describes it now as a situation that was police provoked. And, of course, this is Sam looking back at it a long, long way. And, I think, unlike the hysteria that was going on at that particular time, it was just so new and so novel that no one really knew how to handle that situation.
Tyler
He may have been repulsed by the Muslim philosophy, too. You know, where you don't want to give credibility to a group that was thinking the way they were.
King
Yeah. Yeah. No question there is a good possibility that that was a factor in terms of that direction. But, it certainly did not alter his view toward his own team, those blacks that were a part of the Yorty team. And—
Tyler
But this led to a lot of criticism. You had [S.] Wendell Green leading a committee criticizing the attack and having a big rally at Second Baptist Church and teaming up with the Muslims; Earl [C.] Broady and all of them coming to the legal rescue, Walter [L.] Gordon [Jr.], Loren
King
Yes, you did have a number of people that were participating. It was a very difficult situation because of the fact that black communities in general wanted major kind of changes. There had been an evolution, though, in Los Angeles, and a lot of the changes had occurred and had taken place. And it was really a lot of the surrounding communities where there were larger problems.
Tyler
In what surrounding communities? What do you mean? South Central L.A. was still—
King
Torrance, where you could not buy a house in Torrance, tracts out there that were going in. Monterey Park, same thing.
Tyler
You mean the open housing that had been broken in L.A.
King
It was, yeah, it was falling, see, because at that point, people were able to get into View Park, Baldwin Hills, Leimert. There were a lot of changes and things that were going on: the nightclubs and all were open-door policy. The places of entertainment were not a factor. Been a lot of changes that were occurring.
Tyler
Downtown, the restaurants were open.
King
All open. City hall had opened up to a large degree.
Tyler
Come to think of it, I never thought of that,
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Because in '60, it was, you know, still heavy residue.
King
It was the fact that he had such an open, clear support for the blacks that were around him, until it just radiated out. I mean, there wasn't any, prior to that, there was no such thing as, let us say, a mayor going around and in his entourage—not his employees—were blacks with him. That was the first time that ever happened in this town.
Tyler
On the basis of equality.
King
Oh, clearly.
Tyler
And where he's going to go himself with blacks into restaurants and eat, and there's not going to be any acceptance of a psychology that, well, you go your social way and I go mine, because we don't want to face these unpleasant problems there.
King
Yeah. Those changes occurred, and I think that he's a person who should get some of the credit for those things. But it wasn't fast enough, and there were so many things that were layered above that. You know, the voting rights issues, the equal accomodation issues in the South, all of those kind of things. We still had some real
Tyler
Asians or Mexican Americans.
King
Yeah, all those kind of things were put on the table. Now, all of them never did mature until later dates. But that was—
Tyler
But some of that all wasn't his fault, because the fire department had to go [and] the blacks had to go through the court because of the bureaucratic resistance to anything.
King
Yeah, he told Alderson, for instance, that—
Tape Number: XI, Side One
July 23, 1985
Tyler
Okay, you can go ahead whenever you'd like.
King
Probably one of the most unusual things that is totally unknown as far as the political history of Los Angeles is concerned is the whole, best scenario of blacks in relation to a mayor. This was a situation where Sam [Samuel W.] Yorty—going back now to about early 1960—was always a person who was a political-type person. Political animal, I guess, is what we generally call ourselves. Well, a number of us had sat around, probably five or six people—a couple of people out of the Watts area, couple of folks off the Westside, couple of people out of central Los Angeles—and we were talking about the fact that we were not getting our fair share of activity as it applied to the city government. There had been the vanguard established by a few people with the two-four committee; that was a committee that said that we would politically make an effort for two state senators and four assemblypersons, based upon the reconfiguration of the state, as far as the ten-year period. Every ten years, this state is required to redistrict or establish new political boundaries. Somehow we just felt that the time was absolutely ripe to make the move as far as city government was concerned. Traditionally, in the past, we had had very few
There was at one time in Los Angeles a group of basically Westsiders, basically conservative, honest, wealthy people, who had had a major impact. I think they used to call themselves the Committee of Fifteen. They met on a weekly basis, and they impacted upon what happened in Los Angeles: what city department heads were placed in, and what people went on to commissions, and, by and large, they had a major impact. I think it goes back to Asa [V.] Call and his group, who did an excellent job. They certainly were not in tune with any particular sort of forward movement for this community, but they, in their own minds, felt that they were doing a good job. But they
Anyway, we analyzed the situation and it turned out that even though Poulson had not done a very creditable job in total, that the entire black leadership of the town seemed to be leaning in the direction of Poulson, which was kind of an oddity. Poulson was basically a conservative, basically, and when we say conservative, we're not trying to type him, because it is somewhat difficult, but certainly he was not one who was making any great strides as far as improving the racial impact. Now, you got to remember, 1960 there were not any black members of the city council. The only minority member of the city council that had been there was a Hispanic; that was Ed [Edward R.] Roybal, who, by the way, did an excellent job as a city councilman, but blacks had not moved into that particular level. So we began to think, is there a legitimate possibility of us actually locating a candidate and putting
Would you say the economic impact was blunted or not there because patronage actually had been wiped out some time ago? Was patronage a question, or was it a problem that the mayor just didn't come through, or was there just confusion over politics and economics?
King
Oh, I don't think it's really a mayor's fault or a governor's fault. You got to be out there in business and looking for the business situations or you will get so immersed into the social concerns of a community until most of what you will be doing will not be in terms of hard economics, but will be in terms of programs and grants and things along that particular line, and the level of social acceptance. I think that the emphasis on business—a person who is going to make a success in business has to have a driving commitment to make a success. Now, will you make money if you are successful? Well, the answer is not necessarily, because you can be extremely efficient in terms of what you do and have a lot of the linkage, but that does not necessarily mean that you will be effective as to timing and other kind of things in order to make money. You have to be able to see the opportunity long before it's generally seen, and then you have to begin to energize those things, which in some cases [is] somewhat described as risk-taking. But you have to have access to the information in order to be able to make a fairly
Tyler
With a level of respect and command, not hat-in-hand approach.
From the time that you entered into the garage downstairs, all the way, the respect was there, because the chief executive of city hall respected the people. Just in terms of relating the personal situations, now, because I was community-based, in the sense that I was involved in a lot of community activities, it meant that there was a wide spectrum of folk that I related with. And when I think back on this situation, things that happened that were absolutely amazing to, say— The community just didn't have any big amazement to me at all. My wife [Anita Givens King] had a surprise birthday party for me on one occasion, and half of city hall was at my house, starting with the mayor, for this surprise birthday party when I came in, and I was legitimately surprised. First of all, you know, when you're getting that age, you're not thinking about birthday parties.
Tyler
[laughter] No?
King
[laughter] Yeah. I was in my early forties and my best years, because they were fun years and there was a lot of change that was taking place. And I guess I perceived to some extent that I had some impact on the social changes out there. So I was always— I had a very, very high self-image. I felt that I had done something good, both for the black community, for myself, for my family and for indeed all of Los Angeles, because I felt that these kind of moves
So historically, the bottom line is that Sam Yorty was a black committee's candidate.
Tyler
Now, he served three terms. Did you or members of that committee always feel that Yorty fulfilled his obligations to the black community? Was there some fault in a part of this committee or increasing criticism, alienation, and breakup of this political group?
King
Not at all. Five out of six of us— When it expanded, of course, a little bit. I would say it expanded to about ten people. All ten—I'm sorry—nine out of the ten were there twelve years later. Nine out of the ten. And when you just look back, I mean, the team never left. Team never left. Richard Jones worked in the mayor's office for the entire twelve years. Extremely talented man—
Tyler
Is he still around?
King
Not only is he still around, he's in his eighties now. He is a very viable person, very operative with the major Baptist church, the Second Baptist Church of Los Angeles, and is a state commissioner on aging, appointed by [Governor George] Deukmejian. He is still having significant impact; and in his eighties, he is also one of the vice presidents of the local NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People], was one of the co-founders
Now, Everette Porter first went on as a police commissioner and then later ran for Congress.
Tyler
What? Against [Augustus F.] Hawkins?
King
Against Hawkins. He lost in the primary. Then—
Tyler
What year was that he ran against Hawkins? 'Sixty-four? 'Sixty-eight?
King
I guess it was '62.
Tyler
'Sixty-two?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
That's from the beginning.
King
Yeah, that was when they had open primaries. He later was made a municipal court judge—
Tyler
Everette Porter?
King
Everette Porter. And he ultimately resigned, and then he—
Tyler
Was that an appointment by Yorty?
King
No, no, no. Municipal court judges are appointed by the governor and he was appointed by [Governor Ronald] Reagan. Yorty had a major influence on that appointment. Because Yorty was the person who recommended Everette Porter to the governor. And the appointment was made. So
Tyler
That was true of Judge Billy G. Mills, too, through Yorty's offices; he was appointed later to a judgeship, that family court of law?
King
There was a good deal involved as far as the Billy G. Mills appointment was concerned. There were a lot of us who were involved in that appointment, and it goes really back to the— It had some other kind of political overtones that were involved in it, and Yorty was one of those who was a supporter of that particular situation, because it was what Billy wanted and desired to put together. But it wasn't a heavy Yorty support but the support was there. Another thing that is probably not that well known as far as Yorty is concerned is that Yorty was one of the principal backers of Tom [Thomas] Bradley.
Tyler
How's that?
King
Well, our committee was impressed with Tom, and we met with Sam, and told Sam that we would like to see if it would be possible to get an appointment of Tom Bradley to the city council. There was a vacancy that occurred because Navarro, who had been the tenth councilmember, had run for city controller. He had won the job of city controller, and it left an opening. It was—
Tyler
What was Navarro's first name?
King
As well as I knew him, I cannot really recall.
Tyler
The council was twelve members then?
King
You know, I've really forgotten whether it was twelve or fifteen at that particular point, but anyway, we had five votes, I recall, and it was insufficient in order to get him through. But we had the full support of Sam Yorty.
Tyler
Now, this is 1960.
King
We are now—
Tyler
No, '62, '63.
King
—about '62.
Tyler
Late '62.
King
About '62.
Tyler
Right. Bradley comes in about '63. Now, the council—
King
Well, actually, there was one person in between.
Tyler
Joe [E.] Hollingsworth.
King
Hollingsworth was appointed—
Tyler
By the council.
By the council. And, at that particular time, we were just absolutely certain that a black was going to be appointed, and, of course, when Joe Hollingsworth was appointed, what we did at that particular point was we began to move toward trying to see if we could work with him. It became evident that it would be rather difficult to work with him.
Tyler
Why?
King
Not that he was particularly negative. He just wasn't particularly responsive.
Tyler
To what?
King
Meetings, getting together, just basically maybe the political courtesies.
Tyler
He didn't want to establish a relationship with city hall or the black community?
King
Well, he didn't want to establish a relationship with those of us that perceived ourselves to have some level of political impact that were not a part of the basic Democratic machine.
Tyler
He was a Democrat.
King
He was a Democrat, I believe. That's my best recollection.
Tyler
Or was— I thought his background was from the business community and he didn't have much of a political record, or did he?
No, he didn't have much of a political record. And the acumen that he showed in terms of showing deference to our committee was not there. I can't remember over a very, very few times of even being able to meet with the guy. And, of course, I lived in the district.
Tyler
The Tenth?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
This is part of the Tenth.
King
Yeah. My home is in the Tenth [City Council] District, and I felt that I had, you know, at that particular point, I felt that, both as a constituent and as a person who was involved in political movements— Now, by this time, I had been out on the front line for twelve years or so, in terms of the political arena, because I really started in the early fifties. And our team had kind of started in the early fifties. This is part of the same team that was involved in putting together the black community for Goodie [Goodwin J.] Knight back in, I guess it was '53, when we supported Goodie Knight. In fact, we had the first fifty-dollar-a-plate dinner for any politician given by blacks. So we were really beginning to sense that it's about time now that you have to acknowledge where we are and who we are and that our support is meaningful and that in an environment that has a lot of various groups of political pundits that we were out there
Tyler
Why was there sort of a consciousness since the fifties to be involved in both parties? Or sixties, early sixties?
King
Well, there were some of us that were involved in each of the parties; most, about 90 percent, of course, were involved in the Democratic party, but—
Tyler
I mean of this mayor's committee, that group?
King
The mayor's committee had mostly Democrats.
Tyler
Were they heavily involved in the party machinery?
King
No, no.
Tyler
Oh, they were mavericks like Yorty?
King
We were all, I guess, if you— I don't quite understand the term "mavericks," because it was my view that—
Sort of running off from the group—
King
No, I thought the group was running off from us. [laughter]
Tyler
[laughter] The other way around. Okay.
King
But, I enjoy the use of the term "maverick." I like it.
Tyler
[laughter] The group was running the wrong way. You like to reverse things, don't you?
King
[laughter] So—
Tyler
[laughter] "I wasn't leaving them; they were leaving me." You know, well, that's what a number of people [say] who were Democrats who turned Republicans: "I didn't leave them; they left me." [laughter] What's her name, Bobbi Fiedler. I mean, that was all they argued. "I didn't leave it; it left me." [laughter] A whole lot of Democrats.
King
And, there was interaction and there were a few people who clearly were fighting the battle, and we— It was more fun, really, in the Republican party and more difficult, because there you didn't have a lot of the rhetoric that you had over on the Democratic side. I mean, the rhetoric over there was a little bit different than the actions, but there wasn't any rhetoric. Well, it wasn't just an overstatement, but there was considerably less rhetoric that was over on the Republican side. And on the
Tyler
You mean black commissioners?
King
Black commissioners, in a very, very rapid-fire situation.
Tyler
Nine out of how many possible commission appointments?
King
Well, the number has expanded now, and I think it's up, it's maybe like a hundred and thirty now, but at that time, if I just had to take a guess, I would say, and again
Tyler
Yeah, I guess they didn't wipe out everybody on commissions; they wanted some continuity and stability, right?
King
Sam Yorty's no different than any other politician.
Tyler
He wiped out everybody and put in whole new commissioners everywhere man for man?
King
He wiped out about 80 percent of the people. And those people that he did not wipe out were basically people who were supportive during the final campaign or who maybe had covertly supported by not participating heavily in the Poulson campaign. But if a commission had five people on it, you could bet the family farm that there would only be one left and that would be for continuity.
Tyler
[laughter] Yeah, and he'd be removed shortly, eh?
King
Well, the four of them, you could bet, would go. And there were good reasons. Number one, there was a difference in who was holding the mayor's seat. Persons entitled to their people who have loyalty—their team—and I guess, in a sense, to go the Yorty way. Yorty decided that with our assistance that city hall was going to be opened up, and city hall was opened up. Tremendous
Tyler
Now—
King
No, let me point this out. When you talk about nine commissioners, now, my family came to Los Angeles as a unit in 1938. My grandmother had, of course, been here in 1905, just couldn't make a living, and left. But my family, now, during that period of time, there were never more than, if my recollection is correct, there were never more than three city commissioners. And I think we had mentioned that it was like—
Tyler
The police?
King
—Paul, Paul [R.] Williams, internationally outstanding architect who was very politically active. He was—
Tyler
Republican?
King
—significant as a national Republican. And you had [George A.] Beavers, who was from the largest local business, which was Golden State Mutual Life Insurance Company. And you always had the black spot on the police commission [Los Angeles City Board of Police
Why?
King
Well, number one, there has been a proliferation of commissions and ad hoc committees. Certainly, every time now anything that comes up, the standard situation is to appoint an ad hoc committee to make an evaluation. And the blue ribbon committees have come, and instead of those things, once the report is made, there is a tendency for them to ultimately stay on the books. And when you look now at a situation where— I believe that when Deukmejian went into office I got hold of the plum list, which is really the list of appointments that are available. And, of course, even though you could go to a local library and get the plum list, it is not particularly meaningful just to see it; you have to relate it to what's really going on out there. And I think that there was something like twenty-three hundred appointments that were available to the governor. Now, that twenty-three hundred was only just half of the iceberg because there's another seven or eight hundred where the governor really has impact, but they are appointments within the departments to advisory committees. Now, the advisory committees are sometimes called—
Tyler
Oversight?
King
Well, they have a number of names, but basically they're all really commissions. Some are statutory boards; some are boards created by the department itself. There
Tyler
In the early years. [laughter]
King
Yeah, every person who was appointed a commissioner. You know, I remember the fanfare around my mother's [Leontyne Butler King's] appointment to the library. There'd never been a black on the library commission [Los Angeles City Board of Library Commissioners].
Tyler
So there was a real sense of importance.
King
[laughter] Oh, goodness, yes. I'm telling you—
Tyler
Do you think that that has dampened or harmed black patronage toward politics, because those commissions don't seem like a real reward anymore or something to hand out?
King
Well, what has happened now is that what people must do is that they must now promote themselves in relation to the appointment. And it can be done—
Tyler
To make it important.
King
They have to make it important. And it certainly can be done, but it means now that it takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. You have to probably pay the photographer—
Tape Number: XI, Side Two
July 23, 1985
Tyler
Now, what I was going to ask you, is there any validity at all—be as frank as you can be—[to the claim] that when Yorty came into office, and you've already mentioned that there was a political— In terms of him not confronting chief of police William [H.] Parker, I've heard people say that Parker himself or someone came into Yorty's office with a thick folder of files or dossiers on Yorty that kept him quiet and kept him in line. Is there any truth to that, that some form of intimidation by Parker kept Yorty supportive or quiet on his activities in relationship to the black community or L.A. in general?
King
Well, I've heard that story over and over throughout the years, and I would not doubt that everyone, if the closet was open, could undoubtedly find something that they would not want necessarily openly and notoriously vented about them. But, in all the years that I was around Yorty, I never really saw anything that would cause me to question his basic integrity, question his commitment to be a leader politican that was any way out of the norms, following the basic mores that were followed by politicians. There were fun and games, of course, that went along with it, and there possibly should be. There should be in any environment that one is in, whatever it happens to be. There are
Tyler
Or a fellow traveler, almost. But, now, there's people who claim that Yorty used to go with Dorothy Healey: he was an early radical that shifted to the right later or away from left.
King
Well, you got to remember now, Dorothy Healey and a lot of those people, as far as our community, were some of the first people—not only to our community, I'm sure, but to other communities—they were the first people that were reaching out. Now, they had their motivations for what it was doing for their purpose—I wouldn't say the first. But, I mean, they openly and clearly came into the community, and you got to remember now, these people didn't wear T-shirts that say, "I am a communist." They didn't wear the— There was nothing to cross their back that said, "I am a fellow traveler," "I'm a leaner," and this, that and
Tyler
Is that the reason why?
King
Well, I think there could be a number of reasons why, but I was talking about the results more than I was the reason. But I don't think that we were in any great position where we started showing a lot of biasness that was anti-interaction with people from other communities, because basically the top Democrats and the top Republicans were not available for fraternization anyway. The Democrats to some extent would come through on horseback and—
Tyler
[laughter] Would pass in through at a fast gallop—
King
Hey, you know. So I don't know. By and large, I don't think that the black community did not buy off on the pinkish approach because of the fact that their agenda was so rigid. And even though it talked about being supportive in the blacks' area, I think it was clear to all of us that they really didn't have the political capability unless there had been some major structural change. They didn't have the ability to carry out the rhetoric. We had the
Tyler
Plus there was some danger associating with known or out-and-out [Communist] Party members.
King
But the party members again weren't that clearly and easily identifiable.
Tyler
That's somewhat after the fact. Now you can see, looking back, where they were secretly or covertly associated with the party.
King
Sure you can. There were a few blacks that were directly associated with them, but very, very few. Basically, the black community just didn't buy off on it. I mean, I think that there was a little time that they were both on the same track, but they soon hit a Y in the road. Because, again, blacks really were not interested in a rebellion kind of situation; they weren't willing to trade off what they had, even though they lived in ghettos that virtually had fences around them. They still were not willing to trade off those gains that they had made for a speculative situation. I don't think anything has changed today. I think that, by and large, you're looking at 95 percent of the blacks that are anti— Ninety-five? Ninety-nine percent are probably not taken in by the communist situation. I don't know that they're particularly anti-communist, because "anti" tends to talk about overt acts. I just think that they just have no consciousness nor
Tyler
Now, again, did Yorty ever express any sort of subtle or overt intimidation by Parker? Did they ever have any major differences during his twelve years in relationship to his approach to the black community, or lack of an approach?
King
Yorty was a law-and-order guy in the sense that he
Tyler
Let me halt it there.
Tape Number: XII, Side One
August 7, 1985
Tyler
You know what we need to do is cover the Watts riot, and then we'll go from there on up, because you were an actor in there. What happened? Could you see it coming? Did it surprise you? Just tell us about the Watts riot.
King
Is it on?
Tyler
Yeah, it's on.
King
Oh, okay. Well, I guess in order to talk about the Watts riot, it's impossible not to, say, go back and look at some of the conditions that tended to create the atmosphere. Some of those things dealt with a level of expectancy that was moving along in our community at a very rapid pace during the mid-fifties. Things were beginning to appear to be falling in line; there was some coalescence of the community [that] allowed certain kind of issues: integration in the fire department, brutality by the police department, lack of job opportunities in some things like in the major hotels as waiters, in terms of being able to see people come through the school process and become professional. A lot of things were creating a thing called hope, and hope is the kind of thing that, when the bubble explodes, problems occur too. We were beginning to measure the rate of increase that we were seeing in terms of where
Tyler
Had that been a problem in the past?
King
Oh, back in the forties. But it had all sort of simmered down, and things were moving, really moving along. The whole view was one of an upbeat approach that, hey, we were going to make it work. We had good, ambitious ideas in connection with increased political representation. We started the movement of the two-four group, which was basically a group that says that we need two state senators and four members of the assembly, and, as you well know, that all came to pass. But the seeds were planted in the late fifties: the feeling that there was a certain amount of political influence for a while, the first times we felt that we had put together an agenda and that that agenda, if ever put into full working force, would be able to be almost a panacea of a lot of our problems. Unfortunately, though, the premise that it was put together off [of] was that if we got elected public officials somehow we would be able to have access to the decision tables and that we
Tyler
Now, how did this situation contribute to the coming of the riot or the riot and aftermath?
King
Well, it would appear, certainly in my view, that people somehow thought that the police would be muzzled if you had blacks that were in political power, if you had blacks, let us say, as commissioners. Of course, when you go back to 1955, I think that there were at most three black commissioners in the entire city of Los Angeles.
Tyler
Was that few?
King
Very, very few. They had three.
Tyler
But they were, what, did you say before there were about fifty-five commissioners?
King
Probably sixty, seventy, it could have been as low— It's hard for me to really recall because there has been an increase in the number of appointments that are available. So it is a possibility that there could have been maybe sixty, seventy, would probably be as good a guess as any. And there were no elected officials, as far as the city was
Tyler
Why?
King
Probably because of dissatisfaction in relation to their expectancies.
Tyler
[It] would lead them to that extreme? [William H.] Parker denied that.
Parker may or may not have fully understood the black community. Parker dealt with the black community and did keep the black community on a fairly short leash. But the fact that Parker would differ from me on that particular situation would not necessarily cause me to alter my opinion. I think Parker did a number of good things for the community, and certainly there was a downside to what he did in that he tended to perpetuate the status quo as far as the police department was concerned by somewhat taking an attitude that he was not going to live up to his responsibility of establishing policy and enforcing it. That would represent a significant social change. Whites did not volunteer to ride with blacks, so basically you had black-and-white cars that had blacks in them only, or whites in them only. So it did not move. As far as the police department was concerned, there were a couple of people around that were lieutenants, and—
Tyler
That would have been [Thomas] Bradley. That would have been Bradley and—
King
Washington.
Tyler
Yeah, Kenny Washington's uncle. Not Kenny Washington, but his uncle.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Can't think of his name right now. [Rocky Washington]
Then, we need to look at the fact that there was virtually no community relations program or interaction, that Parker generally etched most of his statements in cement, and generally, as far as I can recall, did not talk about any kind of change with anyone. He did, however, have one liaison person, a woman by the name of Strange.
Tyler
Vivian Strange.
King
Vivian Strange.
Tyler
Sergeant Strange.
King
Sergeant Strange was the only person in the black community that Parker tended to rely on. So you had a large group of people that were expecting the move, and the movement was not occurring.
Tyler
Now, when you said move, and you said that you and others who were conscious and active were moving in a political direction and your expectations were high. Didn't blacks achieve their political expectations?
King
Yes.
Tyler
But the translating of that into other things—
King
Didn't occur.
Tyler
Like getting Parker under control.
King
Parker was—
Tyler
Or economics, was it?
King
Parker was one of the big things that was discussed. But given all, I guess that looking at the
Tyler
Was that because patronage had been destroyed, or what?
King
Patronage had not been destroyed. Patronage was alive and well. But they just were not in a position where they could get much patronage. That was about the only thing that occurred then, because they had to go get the money out of the white community in order to run their elections. So given that, there wasn't much else they could ask for.
Tyler
Why did the rioting take on the looting and burning aspect, then?
King
Oh, I just think that goes with it. Just a spin-off. Every time there's a riot anywhere, there's looting. Just goes with the package.
Do you think there were any preconditions for that? Like say the conflict between Mayor [Samuel W.] Yorty and Congressman [Augustus F.] Hawkins over the War on Poverty? There was a big political battle—or was there not—over War on Poverty funds?
King
Well, Hawkins's brother [Edward A. Hawkins], meaning the congressman's brother, had a major job as commissioner of public works during the [Norris] Poulson administration. When Poulson lost to Bradley—
Tyler
Yorty, is it?
King
I'm sorry, when Poulson lost to Yorty—thank you for the correction—what happened was there was a brief period of time where there was a good deal of conflict. But you got to remember now, Hawkins was in the process of running for Congress just about that time. And there were some things that had to be somewhat resolved. So Hawkins, after making this run— And actually one of the influencing blacks in the Yorty administration ran, too. He ran against Gus in the primary—
Tyler
This is in '62? That's when the [Twenty-first] Congressional District first opened.
King
Yeah, that's when Gus went to Washington; [it] was '62.
Tyler
But that was part of the 1960 reorganization of the congressional, city council districts, right?
Well, in 19—every ten years, of course, the state is required through the handling of the state to do a redistricting. And the district was carved out for Hawkins, who had been a longtime member of the assembly. He had probably more seniority than anyone up there.
Tyler
He did.
King
And they did not want him to become speaker, so they carved out this congressional situation.
Tyler
But there was a court order for the 1960 redistricting in such a way that blacks benefited, because there was some racial gerrymandering that split up blacks that he benefited from. Anyway, that's just a little extra—
King
Well, part of that is part of that level of expectancy. That two-four group became very, very popular, and they were able to get their propaganda throughout the community. I was a member of that group and supported the concept. And we did get our message out. We had to work very hard to get it out, but we got our message out. So with all these things that were going on in the country, Martin Luther King [Jr.] moving into various communities, gaining a level of success, each success tended to increase the appetite of the black community. And they were just in a position where that's all it took was the igniting of the flame. And it occurred.
Do you think the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X, John Shabazz had any impact or influence in the Watts riot?
King
I'm sorry, run that by me again.
Tyler
Do you think that the Nation of Islam, or Malcolm X, their national spokesman, or locally, John Shabazz, played any role or had an influence in bringing on the Watts riot?
King
Well, if so, I can't really clearly identify it. It is true that there was a good deal of community discussion in connection with the Muslims. Most blacks are basically conservative in their actions and much heavier in their conversation. So I would simply say the conversation piece was there. But I don't think that that actually had one iota to do with the occurrence that took place. It was not when the Watts riot started.
Tyler
Now, where were you during the riot? Were you in L.A.?
King
Oh, yeah. I stayed here.
Tyler
What was your reaction?
King
Okay.
Tyler
Did you try to do anything?
King
I heard about it on the radio.
Tyler
You heard on the radio? Did you just sit it out? Did you try to go out, like, say, H. H. [H. Hartford] Brookins and go into the street and tell people to cool it
King
First thing that I did was, when I began to grasp the intensity of the situation, was to go get my wife [Anita Givens King] and kids and get them out of town. I sent my immediate family, right, about fifty miles from Los Angeles.
Tyler
North?
King
North of Los Angeles. We have a little, small place up in a traditional black community called Val Verde. And I packed them up because I did not know what was going to occur. And the following morning, after the first situation, they were on their way to Val Verde.
Tyler
Driving?
King
Driving, yeah. We packed that night and then the next morning they were on their way.
Tyler
Did you go?
King
No, I went to Central Avenue. I went to Central Avenue that night when I was beginning to hear what was happening. I got on the telephones and started talking with businessmen and key community leaders at that point. I needed to be someplace where people could find me and where I could find them. The NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] office, and I was vice president at that time, was located about half a block from my office.
Where is this now?
King
At that time, it was at 4261 South Central Avenue, and it was on the second floor of the Golden State Mutual Life Building. So I knew that that is where it would be a gathering point for some of sort of my group. So I stayed in the office, making phone calls, and the streets were beginning to pick up people, in terms of a lot of people being there. This was several days before they had actually moved down that far in terms of the activity. But you could see the storm brewing, and you don't have to wait until the rain hits you before you know it's going to rain. Well, at that time my office was located in the Dunbar Hotel. And we, of course, were generally identified with that property.
Tyler
Dunbar was still open and operating in '65?
King
Oh, yeah. And because of that, there wasn't any doubt in my mind that nothing was going to happen to my property. In fact, I knew that there wouldn't even be a scratch on it, and, of course, that's actually what did occur. There was no problem as far as my building is concerned, when, a couple of days later, they had moved down to that point. Now, there was a lot of action out in the community. There were a lot of people who were taking a position that this was going to be a very, very bloody situation.
This is the second, third day?
King
Yeah. The National Guard was being alerted, and the process was being initiated to get the guard into South Los Angeles. Well, that, too, was going to be a bit of a problem, and I think everybody realized that the potential for major violence was now really beginning to fall into place. We tried to some extent to reach certain people that were sort of the leaders of this activity that was going on. And we found that basically the traditional leadership in Los Angeles was not the leadership of the people that were involved in this activity.
Tyler
Well, wait a minute, what traditional leaders?
King
Traditional meaning the civil rights groups, meaning the church people, the people that were the business community, the educators of the community [who] were basically not involved in this situation. This had caught on and was spreading like fire and there was fire to go with it. I guess that's poetically [laughter] correct. So with days going by, with many meetings, with a certain amount of restraint that was being shown by LAPD, by city hall, nobody had had anything like this before, so they really didn't know how to react to it. The local politicians didn't know how to react to it, initially.
Tyler
Did Yorty call you? Did the county or government agencies try to round you up for some kind of policy? Was
King
Well, starting with the second day we were meeting, we met at places like the basement down at Second Baptist Church.
Tyler
This is private black leadership groups.
King
Yeah. We met at the NAACP office.
Tyler
Who were the key movers in this, or people on the scene?
King
Well, we had a number of people, but all of the traditional leaders of the major groups were represented. We had Urban League and NAACP; we had another half a dozen recently formed groups. We had some of the new poverty-type organizations that had just been put together. And each had its own level of constituency, and we were beginning to have joint meetings very, very quickly in terms of trying to figure out what to do about the situation. We were just as equally concerned in the black community (in particular, the business community) as the whites were. And it was a new situation for all of us. And, of course, I guess there have been many chapter and verse that go from the first incident to the last incident. And, of course, the governor put the commission [Governor's Commission on the Los Angeles Riots] together
Tyler
Now, were you and your group able to have any impact at all when trying to deal with that situation?
King
I don't think we had much impact when the situation was moving on its own. It had picked up its own inertia and it was going straight ahead.
Tyler
Do you recall H. H. Brookins calling for martial law?
King
Well, there were a lot of things that were said, and the good bishop, who was not a bishop at that time, H. H. Brookins, certainly took a leading role in trying to reduce the violence. We were faced with an unusual situation, and there was no precedent for it. So we had on the one hand the situation of people not wanting to, in any way, work along with the broad establishment for fear that it would be counterproductive, and the fact that there really have been a lot of very distressful kind of situations throughout the years. And this was a situation that just took on its own game. Rioters ultimately went north or slightly north of Washington [Boulevard] as they went down the streets, and then just a few days later, the National Guard did, in fact, come into the community. And when they were coming down Central Avenue, what I did was there were
Tyler
Did you get a good response from those people you talked with?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
Was this just done privately, or was this a decision to—at which your group did—get people to cooperate with the Guard?
King
We weren't trying to cooperate with the Guard.
Tyler
Well, I mean in terms of getting—
King
It had the effect of cooperating with the Guard, but what we were trying to do was get people off the street. We didn't want people killed; we didn't want the black people killed. That's what it boiled down to. You cannot fight the National Guard, who have guns and bayonets, with words. So we made this big effort to do that.
Tyler
Now what about the aftermath? What role did you play in the aftermath [of] it?
King
We put together an organization called the Black Congress. About a half a dozen of us put it together.
Tyler
Did TALO come before the Black Congress?
I believe so—
Tyler
But you went directly to the Black Congress; you didn't— [There] was no other transition or—
King
Okay, when you say TALO—
Tyler
That was Temporary Alliance of Local Organizations. It actually preceded the Black Congress.
King
Okay, yeah. That preceded the Black Congress, but did not come up with an effective agenda.
Tyler
Were you part of TALO?
King
I was aware of TALO, but not really a part of it.
Tyler
Who founded [it], who were the people behind TALO?
King
I think it was basically an ad hoc group that was put together very quickly.
Tyler
Were these mainstream people? Black leaders or some new people?
King
I can't really give you enough answers about the TALO situation. I can give you chapter and verse, though, on the Black Congress.
Tyler
Anyway, just go ahead with your story about the aftermath, what you and others were doing and why.
King
Well, the jails were loaded. There were curfews, people were being picked up almost at random: mothers and children were being picked up, working people coming home from work. Curfew was out there. They were just going through cleaning out the streets. They filled up the
Tyler
What [do] you mean? You were a bail bondsmen. Didn't you get calls to go get them out?
King
Oh, yeah.
Tyler
What—
King
Initially, we were unable to have anyone available to set bail and anyone available to sign off on the releases. At that particular time, the judge had to in fact sign the release for a person to get out of the county jail. And we simply just did not have a mechanism that was workable. A number of the judges were meeting at the new county courthouse. Members from the Langston Law Club, and many other individual lawyers were making themselves available to handle matters. I met with Stanley [R.] Malone, who at that time was the president of the Langston Law Club, and we walked the steps in front of the county courthouse for hours until we were able to get inside and get them to establish a process for releasing people.
Tyler
Wait a minute. The police would not have let anyone in the courthouse? They had it barricaded or what? Guards?
Tape Number: XII, Side Two
August 7, 1985
Tyler
I guess we better backtrack slightly. You were saying in the aftermath— You better start back when you went down to the county courthouse to try to get in.
King
Well, initially, when the people were arrested, bail was not set. So it was very, very difficult to figure out how to solve the problem of getting people out. So the judges, or several of the judges, the presiding judges of both, I believe, superior and municipal (a few other judges came in from the outlying areas), these judges met in the new county courthouse. They met for hours on end. And I can recall that Stanley Malone, a local black lawyer who at that time was president of the Langston Law Club, he and I simply walked those steps out there, back and forth, back and forth, and we just paced away and killed time and just stayed there for hours on end until the judges finally came to a conclusion as to how they would handle the thing in terms of setting a reasonable bail so they could begin to process people through. They finally agreed to set reasonable bails.
Tyler
Now, did you and Stanley happen to meet there? You went down there trying to see how the courts and the bail system would handle the aftermath, or what?
King
We'd spoken on the telephone, and we went there by
Tyler
Agreement with who?
King
He and I. Because he was representing the major law group, major black law group in this town, and I was involved in the bonding business. So I went down there not solely without some capacity to get something done. I went down with an attache case full of bonds. So I was in a position to get people out. Later on we did. Now, what we did was we dropped all of the normal standards—collateral, payment in advance, or for that matter, just payment at all—and we evaluated a lot of the circumstance, and we came to the conclusion that we could help and probably the person would show up in court. We'd make that analyzation basically over the telephone. After hearing those kind of things, we'd make up our minds and we'd say go or no go. And it was go probably 75 percent of the time, because our standards got weaker and weaker. We knew there was gambling. We knew we were gambling the entire business at that particular part, because if the people did not go to court, there'd be no way in the world for us to survive it. But that was the decision that we had made.
Tyler
That was you and Stan Malone?
King
Well, as far as my office was concerned, it was my decision to make. But I talked with both my dad [Celestus A. King, Jr.] and my wife by telephone, because certainly
Tyler
Was there family consensus, or was there disagreement?
King
They both told me to follow my own judgment. Said, fine, whatever you want to do, okay. Because they knew I was close to the situation. So that was a consensus from my standpoint. And we did post literally hundreds of bonds, and we were very, very fortunate. We did not lose a lot of them. We lost a few; some people paid, some didn't.
Tyler
But it was not a financial loss for you.
King
It was a financial—
Tyler
I mean, a loss in the normal sense, but not in the sense that the risk was going to break your back.
King
It was not a catastrophe situation in terms of losses. They were acceptable losses that I could stand, except that I worked for probably a week in terms of the time. Now, no agency had as much experience in getting out large numbers of people like our agency had, anyway. We had—
Tyler
You mean this is even prior to the riot.
King
Oh, yeah. We had handled the CORE matter and— That's the Congress of Racial Equality.
What was this?
King
In Monterey Park, in San Pedro, in Torrance, so basically—
Tyler
Oh, these were the housing demonstrations.
King
Yes.
Tyler
And mass arrests?
King
Right.
Tyler
And the numbers involved?
King
Large numbers.
Tyler
Was it '63, '64?
King
Right.
Tyler
Was this in the hundreds arrested?
King
In some cases. That Torrance situation had run into the hundreds. We had handled the student matters at [San Fernando] Valley State [now California State University, Northridge].
Tyler
Oh, but this is—yeah, this is much later; this is '67, '68.
King
Okay—
Tyler
The San Fernando Valley, 19—
King
Those came along later and I was trying to simply illustrate that that was the type of matter that we had handled. But the CORE situations had come along prior to in some cases.
Tyler
And the Muslim situations.
Muslim situation.
Tyler
Nineteen sixty-two.
King
Yeah, '62 is when it occurred.
Tyler
The April shoot-out? How many did you have to bail out from the Muslim shoot-out in Los Angeles of 1962, April?
King
I've forgotten the exact number that were there, but—
Tyler
It was still a group situation.
King
It was a group situation, and it was a situation where, basically, most of the downtown bondsmen had decided that it was not in the best self-interests for the bail agents to be involved with that type of a situation.
Tyler
Why?
King
Well, number one, nobody understood them as far as the downtown bonding people were concerned. Number two was dealing with some of the rhetoric of them being anti the devil (the devil being somehow involved with whites) until I think that really the Muslim group just scared the white folks to death. They were scared to deal with them.
Tyler
Just didn't want to have no contact with them. Now, you said you were threatened.
King
Well, the threats basically were that it was suggested by a number of police officers at that time that I would not be able to— Very, very highly emotional
Tyler
Because you were, what, siding with their enemy, or something like that?
King
Basically, it was that, and the fact that all the other bondsmen had pretty well entered into a gentlemen's agreement that they would not go so far, but nobody would admit it. But that was the results of it. However, I wasn't a part of that agreement, so I didn't feel compelled to have to observe it. And the second thing is the agreement was more of an understanding without a lot of words; it wasn't formalized. It was just that—
Tyler
People just knew that that was a—
King
[laughter] Solid conspiracy.
Tyler
A hot potato.
King
Yeah. White bondsmen basically just were apprehensive about dealing with people who they perceived to be potentially, well, they seemed to be different. So I had handled all the tough ones in this community: I had written all the bonds for CORE, for NAACP, those bonds that they had; I was identified with the rights movement; and I was the only person that people had some level of expectancy, that they would do something about it. And they knew that I would do something about it, if anyone, so, fine, I did. I got a little mail behind it. The usual
Tyler
From who? What kind of people? Organizations?
King
Oh, just random mail. People indicating that I should not have posted those bonds because these people are anti-this and anti-that and the other kind of things. It was a little bit of a problem. I knew some of these people. Some of them had come from right around here in Los Angeles. And I knew them. So I didn't look at them in the same sense [as] people who did not know them. I knew John Shabazz at the temple; I knew the captain real well.
Tyler
Sherrill?
King
Ed Sherrill. These were people that were viable out here in our community. So I didn't look at it in the same way. And the Muslims did not hesitate in terms of where they were and their support of me whenever it was needed.
Tyler
Did they put up the standard security, property security for the bails?
King
They put up adequate collateral, and they put up the money.
Tyler
Now, shifting back to these Watts riots bails, what was the final aftermath?
King
Final aftermath was that I had a tolerable loss. As far as the fees were concerned, I wasn't too worried about those, because I knew if I just took in enough to maybe cover, that would be okay. But I lost a few bonds where
Tyler
Arrested them without any notations, so [you] went to court, what do you—
King
Well, they made a lot of arrests, no doubt about it. We wrote a lot of those bonds, and I must say that I was willing to take the risk.
Tyler
What was the average cost of the bond posted?
King
Well, I think $150; $1,500 bonds was probably close to the area.
Tyler
Mainly what type of charge? Misdemeanor, felony, or what?
King
Well, most of the charges initially were felonies that they were putting the people in on. On a felony, you can hold a person longer, and there's a lot more latitude the police department has and the district attorney. Because they can always reduce the charge to a misdemeanor, and in many cases they did drop them to misdemeanors, and in many cases they did just simply dismiss, or in a sense file no charges.
Tyler
What was your impression of those tactics? What was your interpretation of those tactics? What did they mean?
King
What was my interpretation of those tactics? Well,
Tyler
What do you mean?
King
They were trying to delay, I believe, getting the people through that process, so that they would be able to defuse what was happening in the streets.
Tyler
Using a sort of the court criminal-justice bureaucratic system?
King
They were willing to use whatever would tend to break the sequence of what was happening on the street. That's basically where that ballgame started and finished. We have to knock it off. [tape recorder off]
Tyler
Okay, now, I think we had pretty much covered the bail situation. In the aftermath of the riot, what did you do?
King
Well, some major efforts were made to try to resolve some of the real points and issues. Here we had the opportunity, given the economics of the community and given the changes that were taking place there, to take over most of the businesses that were in the black community. They became accessible and available almost in a period of just a couple of years, from '65 through '66, '67, even on into '68. The possibility of being able to take over those businesses was clear. Basically, the white merchants wanted to flee the district, take their capital, go to some place where it would be less of a threat, less of a
What did happen was that the government came in with large amounts of dollars and programs that were designed not particularly to do anything other than to placate the people, put a lot of the middle class, the better educated, into salaried positions—salaried positions that would give some work experience and would give them a check. But it would also be a way of taking the community to a point where the community could not really begin to do the major thing of further disruption, because you had so many people that were dependent on a check. When they had this check
Now, they take a group of community people and give them several million dollars and a hundred employees to run an operation, and they don't give them the type of supportive backup as far as management is concerned. They then are saying that there must be broad-based participation out in the community, and boards are generally formed and then those boards do what they can, because they do generally bring in people with some level of expertise. But everyone should know and should understand up front that they simply cannot manage those dollars when it comes to the paper. It isn't a matter of theft. It's a matter of the fact that the government played their little game of not causing these people to bring in the hard-liner type people that were involved in prior business activities and had some experience—people who were the CPA levels—and put them in charge of how to do the recording and how to follow through on the paperwork. And then, at these later dates, they come in after having just flowed the money into these programs, they come in with hardcore accounting. Well, they changed the rules of the game. At first, it's all about let's get a program together, let's help a community, and then in a few years later, it's all about did you cross the t's and dot the i's? And did you initial each expenditure that went out? Well, they knew that they were trapping the community, and they knew that they would be
So what happens? I'll tell you what happens; it's very simple. Ninety percent of the programs that were out
Tyler
Now, you're talking about the War on Poverty programs.
King
The War on Poverty program was designed as a trap. It was designed to fail, and it was designed to give a justification that here we have made all these major efforts to help these people, and they have done nothing in order to help themselves. And that design came through. It's being carried on now, to this very day, because they're nailing and putting the final nails in the coffins on many, many of the organizations where they did not demand that they come through with accounting processes and turn in the reports timely. They wait several years later, and then go in and say, well, look, you didn't turn in five progress reports, you didn't turn in this, didn't turn in that. Well, the fact of the matter is, if they—the cities, the counties, the state, and the feds—had used effective monitoring processes, they would have put capable people in to handle those technical situations. But it was done by design. It was not an accident.
Tyler
But wait a minute. Now, in saying that, are you saying that the Community Action Program and [R.] Sargent Shriver [Jr.], maximum community participation actually
King
Oh, absolutely, yes. Absolutely, yes. They took incompetent people for the technical jobs as well as those social-action jobs.
Tyler
And are you saying that the Community Action Program, that—if you'll remember the maximum feasible community participation—that aspect was a failure?
King
As it applied to the technical support.
Tyler
Would you say that competent minorities were, or blacks were available, but they didn't choose those types?
King
The competent minorities, the extremely competent minorities did not basically have the background and the linkage into the community politics that was involved in making the selection of the people who would have the jobs. There was no enforcement and no insistence on the part of the funding authorities in order to get them, and they did not provide on a continuing basis anything except theory type of support. We look at these programs and you can just go through them and count them, okay, program after program that went down, all about from technical things.
Tyler
Could you give us a few examples of what programs went down for that?
King
In the Model Cities Program period, there were
Tyler
Was the Community Alert Patrol one?
King
Community Alert Patrol went down in a thirty-five degree tailspin, and today they're coming back and, hey, it's the neighborhood type—
Tyler
Neighborhood Watch?
King
It's Neighborhood Watch and other kind of things that have developed from those kind of concepts. They had an elaborate situation out in South L.A., but there, again, the technical-assistance situation was enough to ultimately just kill it. They got to a point where, of course, they were spending most of their time trying not to carry out the objectives of the program but to defend the technical points. You take the Community Alert Patrol— When they started, there's no question about it. If a community is going to be self-sustaining, if a community is going to prosper, you have got to see to it that there's a certain amount of tranquility that is available on those streets. And who can do it best other than the people who live
Tyler
Now, was this the heart of the conflict between Yorty's position of responsibility and accountability and Congressman Gus Hawkins? Your position seems to be the Yorty position, and Gus was saying maximum community participation. H. H. Brookins was his big ally, right, in this battle between Yorty and Hawkins over direction of War on Poverty programs and money? Are you—
King
Well—
Tyler
Would you say that your argument is part of this conflict of that time period?
King
Yes, it is a part of it, but I didn't really see that there was that much of a philosophical difference. I think that both had basically the same objective in mind. I think one program may have been a little bit too broad in terms of this situation of absolute maximum people participation. The effect of maximum people participation,
Now, you had unusual situations. You had a Los Angeles, for instance, at one time where there were two major poverty areas that were circled, and one that was out in the [San Fernando] Valley. And the money came in and basically the rest of the city didn't want it because it came in with these implications of how it had to be spent. So you developed then these two areas, South Los Angeles, which was Watts— And when I talk in terms of the word Watts, Watts is not that really narrow piece of turf that is defined as a small neighborhood that is in South Los Angeles; from my standpoint, and the way I look at it, Watts has moved to a concept, and it has a broader meaning,
Tyler
Especially ghetto conditions.
King
—"I don't live in Watts," and they live in the black community, well, fine, they can say that, but that isn't the perception that is there. Hey, Watts is the black community.
Tyler
Watts is almost now synonymous with South Central.
King
It is.
Tyler
It's only a small part, technically, or geographically, of South Central.
King
Sure. If I'm here in Los Angeles, people ask me where do I live, I generally say I live in South Central because they understand the difference. But if I go anyplace in this country—and I'm always going around the country—people ask me where do you live? Do you live in the Watts area? Well, the answer is yes, because they see Watts as the black community in Los Angeles. Now, yes, there have been some single situations, fine. The Baldwin Hills area has been distinguished, Leimert Park is distinguished, the country-club section, maybe, which is in an old-line district that changed early on. But, to a large extent, the black community is Watts.
Tyler
In terms of the concept.
King
Concept—
A problem community. A community with problems.
King
—and perceptions.
Tyler
Now, in this period, '66, '67, you said there was a period blacks could have developed or moved in and took over economics. When you look at that time period, and then, say, look back at the rise and decline of Central Avenue, do you see any parallels? How would you compare and contrast the two opportunities to move in and take over the economics; or, at least when Central Avenue at one time was sort of a black downtown? Do you see any lessons, or do you have any particular perceptions if you were to look at those two incidents? I know it sort of stands out in my mind that all around the country—and certainly people say it was because of segregation—there were viable black downtowns, although blacks didn't always dominate them, but they had some, you know, significant cluster or participation. Since that time, that has never occurred again. Not really, in most non-Southern black communities.
King
Well, I think the tragedy of the situation is that we have not made the effort to restabilize, to rebuild any of the communities as they begin to go downhill. There is, of course, the well-known phrase, "white flight." Well, there's also a situation called black flight. Black flight is not very dramatic; it does not get a lot of press coverage and other kind of things. But clearly, the moment
There was also the situation on a little lower approach, lower-level approach, the blockbusting situation, and a lot of blacks got caught up in this situation because they got areas confused; by example, at one time, let's say Fontana and Pomona, and those kind of areas. People got
Tyler
Or viable.
King
—and viable. And what happened is that they ended up with problems from both standpoints.
Tyler
Homes but no jobs in the area.
King
There you go. So they ended up with suburban problems and urban problems. They had a combination of them, whereas prior to that, they didn't have any particular, well, at least, they had been—
Tyler
The perception was that in the suburbs was the well-being, you know, that everything was okay in the suburbs.
King
[laughter] Yeah.
Unemployment, nothing wrong existed.
King
And somehow, if you got in the suburbs, that, hey, all of a sudden, a lot of things would change. I mean, things would get better, the environment was better—
Tyler
Schools, crime.
King
I would not go to an extent of saying that they got the worst of both. I think that would be a slight overstatement.
Tyler
Yeah.
King
But certainly there have been some improvements in recent years in terms of values of properties and other things, say, in the Pomona area, and it has kind of made some real dramatic improvements. But when they would come into these areas whenever they had an area that was compatible to bringing in blacks and they couldn't move the property to whites, hey, you could virtually go out there and sign your name with a few hundred dollars, and they'd give you an apartment building. Of course, the type of tenants that you would attract, you might have a little problem trying to collect the rent from them, but they were good-looking apartment buildings, and ultimately this turned out to be a real benefit because as the value of property went up, well, fine. So this has turned out to have some real redeeming rewards at the tail end of this situation. But, here again, very few blacks, for instance,
Tape Number: XIII, Side One
August 11, 1985
King
So the whole thing is that as we moved along a lot of things were occurring; you had the ground breaking of the large hospital that was put up on Western Avenue, completely controlled basically by blacks.
Tyler
That's right across from Boys Market? Near, what is it, Eighteenth [Street] and—
King
No, that is—
Tyler
Is that the Ross?
King
That's the Ross Medical Center, which probably has, oh, three, four hundred doctors.
Tyler
Is that a black— Is that the one you're referring to?
King
No. No. They did put up the Ross, the medical building which was here—
Tyler
Is that a black thing there?
King
Yes. Yeah, it was put together and done very well in terms of moving it, and then their next project was to put the hospital together.
Tyler
Oh, the one right across the street further down?
King
Yeah, by the freeways. [West Adams Community Hospital]
Tyler
That's the one they lost to the the Koreans, right?
King
They lost the hospital to the Koreans, yeah. There
Tyler
What year?
King
I guess I would have to say it was probably like '67, maybe '68, but I can't really recall exactly the year. I was part of the ground-breaking ceremony; I was called in at that time, and I was very, very pleased to see that entity going up. I knew that it would mean nothing but pluses as far as this community was concerned.
Tyler
Now, you mentioned this black flight and blacks, soon as they got about six checks, they were moving. How do you account for that? What do you think was the driving force for that type of phenomena?
Well, I think it was very clear. We were on upward mobility, and people wanted to be where the life was better, where the security factor was more satisfying. They wanted to be in newer places; they wanted in many cases to step out from family and get out on their own. You had a lot of younger folk that were involved that got employed, and, hey, they wanted their own places, and this was the first—or not necessarily the first—but this was an opportunity for them to be able to do this. People wanted to get out of the hard-core communities and get to a place where it looked better, it felt better [and] all those other connotations of the better life were there. They wanted to go into complexes where there were swimming pools and where they had washers and dryers, and someplace inside of the building where they could do those kind of things. They wanted to move up, and, hey, that was good and that was justifiable and understandable. But they didn't realize that the technicals were going to kill the program, plus the attitude. Now, ultimately, the money used to be sorted out going to these three pockets—the South Central, the Northeast section, which was the Hispanics, and then a little bit out in the Pacoima area, where it was a mix of both Hispanics and blacks that were there. So it was that kind of situation where, as a backdrop, that caused some changes. That large amount of
Tyler
Now, was this the time period of '65 and, I guess, afterwards, the big rush of blacks moving into Inglewood and the white Westside areas? The Leimert Park, the Crenshaw [Boulevard], and further? Was this type of upward mobility— Was this when these sections were falling to black residents?
King
Yes. This all started out basically—
Tyler
Because that happened quickly. I mean, Inglewood fell quickly. How do you account for that?
King
Inglewood fell quickly, Compton fell quickly.
Tyler
Why?
King
They fell because of the fact that people had to trade in capability, number one, in terms of buying the houses. They have in many instances been locked into certain communities, and it meant that they had put good
Tyler
So you think that was a big factor?
King
Oh, that was a major factor, and that is that they had this equity position in these houses.
Tyler
What about whites?
King
Whites, for them, it was a real benefit. In general the whites benefited, because they were able to do their move, too, because they generally had other areas in mind that they wanted to step up to. So this whole thing was just sort of an upward-mobility kind of a centrum that the entire community, both black and white, were into.
Tyler
So, in other words, they both could take a step at the same time and feel good about it, and that reduced the race friction?
King
Yeah. We got preoccupied into moving into other areas and other kind of things, and, of course, you did have the situation, oh, in many cases, the difficulties of being able to get in. Now, I think one of the problems
Tyler
Well, wait a minute, now. What about John Buggs, the L.A. County Commission on Human Relations, Crenshaw Neighbors [Inc.], Compton's Neighbors, Pasadena's Neighbors? They were involved in a lot of activities to resolve race problems in the schools and the housing area and any other situation.
King
Well, I think really what they were involved in was slowing down the process; they weren't involved in making the process permanent in terms of those movements. And I think that it probably did cause them to go from overdrive, where they were, down to high gear. But in terms of being able to effectively do it, it did not occur, and hey—
So they tried and failed.
King
—you can just look at the ledger, okay? And there it is. You know, I have many, many white friends that come by my place of business, come by my house, and they say, "Well, look, you know, I used to live right in this neighborhood; I used to work in this neighborhood." Right? So, yes, they were here.
Tyler
Why did they flee?
King
Oh, they flee like for the same reasons that blacks were moving: upward mobility. They want to get to a better place.
Tyler
Now, did the Watts riot play a role?
King
Oh, the Watts riot focused attention on the fact that some of these areas became perceptively untenable for them to be able to live. As they began to go through the communities, in many cases just by skin color, they were able to identify some of the problems simply by virtue of being white.
Tyler
In what way are you saying that?
King
Well, okay. When they went to the various places, the level of hostility, whether it be real or illusory, right, was going, you know; it was in their mindset. They wanted to get places where they could feel a little bit less threatened. It got to a point where in some parts of the black community, about the only whites you saw out
Tyler
And, of course, the upper-mobility money patterns allowed the escape hatch for blacks and whites to a certain degree.
King
Yeah, and [with] the building and the new areas and the cleaner kind of surroundings that were there it did cause people to go out and to move and to go to the suburbs. Now, suburbs created their own types of problems ultimately, and I don't know that this piece is an examination of what their problems happen to be. But the traditional black places where blacks used to go, likewise, were not necessarily on an upward-mobility situation. You can take the areas of, say, the Val Verde area, which was a traditional black sort of Palm Springs approach. It did—When integration came through, and you could actually go to Palm Springs, okay? All of a sudden the level of attractiveness of those places significantly went down. Well, okay, then, in that case, there was no psychology for blacks to
Tyler
Why?
King
Because we lost the great opportunity that we had to build an economic base, to build a community of businesses. Now, the Chinatown concept is probably the number one model throughout this country in terms of what communities can do. But you certainly have all the other ethnic groups that have their areas—the Polish have got a little pocket, the Armenians have got little sections.
Tyler
With the commercial districts.
King
Yeah. The Thai people have theirs all the way across the board. Hispanics, well, kind of hard for me to make the evaluation, because they too had some problems about people from outside the community basically controlling the economy inside. And that's what we had. But here we had this great opportunity. It was the Golden Fleece. It was the time to say that we blew it. Well, you could take a look at the economic status of the community out there today and we're great consumers. We handle an awful lot of money. We probably handle more money than most countries in the world. But we're basically consumers. We're not producers. In the areas of service,
Tyler
Pullman porters—
King
—all of those things being able to interact with the general community—white, black and otherwise. Now, we got to the point where we wanted to be a step above the service business and the whole country's turning out to be basically in the service business. I mean, so, it looks like we are counted a trend that we were in the service businesses. We were in— Go back a generation or two generations before that, we were in the agrarian approach where we understood the farming and other things. What has happened to the black farmer? What has happened to the black service concerns? Hey, we're simply just— We have caused ourselves to miss the boat.
Tyler
What happened?
King
Well, I think that there was a big phenomenon that came over the black community that, hey, we should all be able to step up and put an attache case in one hand and find a desk to sit by and then somehow that all these kind of things were going to change. Well, I don't think it ever would occur to any group that wasn't— It wouldn't
Tyler
Now, you hit on a point there which I was trying to drive at: do you think the civil rights militancy and Malcolm X had an influence on black attitudes toward labor that were negative or positive, or what?
King
Well, I think they'd have some very, very good significant points of saying, "Hey, I want to get in; I want to be a part of— I want to join the union if I have to join the union in order to be able to get a job. I want to get in the apprentice program, and whatever I have to do to get into it, I want to get into it. I want to be at the point where I can see that what I get per hour goes up four-fold." I think that it had a large level of consciousness awakening to an entire sleeping community that these things were out there and that we should get, sort of, I guess, the cliche, our piece of the pie. But demanding it is one ballgame; being prepared to handle it
Tyler
[laughter] Tell me this—
King
Can we knock it off for a minute? [tape recorder off]
Tyler
We had finished up that point. You founded [Los
King
The Rumor—
Tyler
What happened?
King
The Rumor Control situation came out of the president's report that was handled by the former governor of Illinois.
Tyler
The Kerner Report?
King
Kerner was chair—
Tyler
Otto Kerner?
King
—of that report [Report of the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders], and one of the things that came out of the report was the Rumor Control Center that was in operation in Chicago. Of course, people tend to focus considerably on the actual period of time when things were actually erupting, but it was the fallout that took fully ten years. That, I guess, was the period that everybody had to watch, see to it that things did not fall back into that kind of a problem again. Well, there was a real need for Rumor Control because the credibility of the white press, of the media in general—the six o'clock news, et cetera—was seriously in doubt. There had been—
Tyler
By who?
King
By the black community. And the black community was unwilling to accept that as a creditable source in terms of
Tyler
Was this true in the past? Was there something that happened to make this true?
King
Well, basically, things haven't changed a great deal, even up to today. And that is that the media is constantly victimized by the problem of trying to increase their credibility. Well, at that time, they had very few whites that had any real contacts as far as the black community was concerned, and they had very few blacks that were involved in the media. So the daily papers were basically all white as far as their staffs were concerned. The television people, by and large, did not have many blacks at all, except what was sometimes called the weekend black approach. That is, on the weekend they have an anchorperson or someone participate on the tube, and then they would have a few specialty kind of situations. But as far as the day-to-day operation was concerned, there weren't any blacks that were involved. So what you had was what was perceived as a white media on one side versus the black community on the other side. So it was very hard because of that exclusion that was there; whether it had been the policy or just simply the results of more competent people on the other side, you had that situation where there were just very few people that were involved in the white media. So this black community [and] then other
Now, the situation in connection with rumors is as old
Tyler
This is what year?
King
I think we're now talking about 1968, when the Kerner Report came out. But we pulled it directly out of there on the Kerner Report.
Now, the Kerner Report talked about Chicago, Illinois, as a place that had an effective rumor control. It was run there by the use of a telephone bank and some professional people and some volunteer people. It was set up on an ad hoc basis, so that every time a stressful situation would occur, people would come in. In a sense, they would go out and research the situation very quickly and get their assessment of the facts to find out what the true facts were, and then they would put these people at a telephone bank around a large table—and I guess they had
Recognizing telephones were key on the situation, I got in touch with a local guy with the telephone company called— His name was Clark Clarkson. And I said, "Clark, what are the feasibilities of being able to set up a mechanism here that would be a little bit different from the mechanism they're using in Chicago as I understand it?" And we met together with the phone company to see what we could quickly put together. The phone company was totally cooperative in the situation because they were having their men, some of them, being shot at on poles when they were out trying to repair telephones, and a number of other things that they were really having problems on.
Tyler
Whether their employees would feel safe going into the black community, or whatever?
King
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we also found that the phone company's rate of repairing of services in the white community was more than twice as fast in terms of response as it was in the in the black community. And the reason was that employees just didn't want to go out there and climb up on the pole. [laughter] They didn't want to go out there and park out in the black community; they were having employee problems about that, you know? So they were very cooperative. We sat down, we decided, well, the
Tyler
So, what— Well, anyway, that's another, different deal.
King
So I did. I got on the plane, my own expense, went to Chicago, spent three days there. Worked twelve hours a day interviewing people who had run the project. Stayed one day around the City Human Relations Commission there, went out in the community which I knew quite well from having grown up there as a kid—a lot of changes have taken place, of course—and decided that, yes, we can put it together, but that the bigger problem that they had there was that it was totally controlled by the city. I came back, and at the time when I got back, decided that there had to be some level of independence that would be involved rather than it simply be another city agency or a subcomponent of a city agency. Now, it was introduced into the [Los Angeles] City Council here—that's the City Human Relations Commission that set up a rumor control. Well, I was on that commission at the time, and I had been to Chicago and I saw the shortcomings, and that was that the politicians had too much influence, even though they did in fact back off when problems were occurring in Chicago. The reins were completely given, without any real encumbrance, to the City Human Relations Commission in Chicago. They
Tyler
Now, did the phone company provide the phones free?
King
No, no.
Tyler
You had to pay?
King
They provided a lot of consultant services and other kind of things, but the phone bill had to be paid letter perfect to the dollar.
Tyler
By who?
King
We raised the money. We got money from private sources: the business community made contributions because they felt it was in their self-interests; the Red Feather Organization, which was the crusade here, made some contributions.
Is that the Brotherhood Crusade?
King
The Brotherhood Crusade, too—the white crusade and the black crusade.
Tyler
Oh, I see.
King
Both made contributions and they understood clearly what our program was, and they felt that it was the type of an agenda that would be beneficial to all. We met with and were given the— We met with the president, with the Bank of America, Security First National [Bank], and in meetings we interacted around what we were doing and the purpose of it. We met with the mayor and members of the city council.
Tyler
Was this—the Bank of America—was this to get donations, or what? Support?
King
Well, we didn't really go around and ask that much for donations, but what we did do was we explained our program and indicated that, hey, if they wanted to play, then fine. But they would have absolutely no levels of control in terms of what we were doing, and we did not want any larger donations from any one particular source because we did not want that level of influence, and we were not trading off donations and participation at a financial level for them to bring people onto the board level.
Tyler
Now, you never did receive any federal War on Poverty funds, any of that type of federal funds that you—
King
Yes, we did in the end, when the Model Cities money
Tyler
Who put your name in there? Did you guys write up a proposal?
King
No.
Tyler
Somebody submitted the proposal?
King
Yeah, it was—
Tyler
Who did?
King
—it was put in there. Well, it was put in in terms of what the moneys would be used for.
Tyler
But who put it in?
King
It was put in and not at our instigation. Simply, we were doing a great job and it was being acknowledged what a job we were doing. Now, later on, the job got a little bit tougher, but anyway it was put in. Now, not that we were unhappy about it being put in, because it was another level of acknowledgment that also helped another—
Tyler
How much money did you get and for how long?
Well, I think that they contributed a little over a hundred thousand a year; we ended up with a couple hundred thousand that they put in. Now, what happened was when this situation went in and the federal money came back, they virtually came to us and said, we would like to fund your program. And we had to think about it. So when the Model Cities money was available, we had a choice. We could either take the money and increase the program's impact and go into putting out media things ourselves, to be sure that we could cut off things, some things, before they actually occurred; or we could sit there with the very small dollars that we had and the small staff we had and have somebody else come in and open up a rumor control, taking the larger money from the Model Cities program that we in effect had created.
Tyler
Actually, just duplicate what you are doing, because you didn't want to do it or back off a little—
King
[laughs] Yeah.
Tyler
—except in the money?
King
So the money was almost designated; there was almost designated funds for a rumor control program. So if we did not take the money, someone else would have. Now, had a big problem—
Tyler
It probably put you out of business. [laughter]
King
Absolutely. Absolutely. We had a real problem in
Tyler
Who is "we," now? Who would be other people who—
King
Well, we had Larry Shane, who was with me in NAACP, and we had Margaret Pully, who was a community activist and very, very, very good, strong—a community-activist woman and very, very bright. Then we had [S.] Wendell Green, who was the second person to take over our putting together of the news releases and other things that we put together. Now, any and all these people had support staff, of course. We had— I just can't remember the guy's name, now, but one of the first black guys who worked for the L.A. Times as a featured writer and a regular reporter.
Tyler
Don't know—
King
We hired him and put him in charge of putting the news releases and other things.
Tyler
That's not J. K. Obatala?
King
No.
Tyler
Okay, no, you said a reporter. Was Tut Hayes involved?
King
Tut Hayes was not involved in the rumor control program.
He was—
Tyler
[Maulana] Ron Karenga or Emsemajeh or—
King
No.
Some of Karenga's lieutenants?
King
No. No, Emsemajeh, who—
Tyler
Emsemajeh? He was one of Karenga's top guys. He—
King
Yeah, he went to San Diego. He's in San Diego now, then left to—
Tyler
[Clyde (C. R. D.)] Halisi?
King
Halisi, I think, finished his doctoral program at UCLA, I believe, and was one of Karenga's top lieutenants. The fact of the matter is that this really came out of NAACP. That's really where it came from, because—
Tyler
Rumor Control?
King
—when I was president of NAACP—
Tyler
During what years?
King
Well, I'm going back now to '68 when that came in. That was when we put the program together; in fact, our first phone number was 29-NAACP. That was the phone that people were to call when there was a problem out in the community and they wanted some answers.
Tyler
Now, Rumor Control was mainly a response to the Watts riot?
King
Initially.
Tyler
And to keep violence and riots down?
King
Yeah. One of the situations that occurred that was very, very significant was that something had happened over at [George Washington] Carver Junior High School. And over
Tape Number: XIII, Side Two
August 11, 1985
King
We were able to then put out the news release, and when it was clear that it came from the Rumor Control and Information Center, the community went from a boiling point back to normal. But they would not believe other sources.
Now, one thing that helped us was the fact that the police department did not endorse what we were doing in many cases. Chief [Edward] Davis, who was the chief of police, I think, basically, was a guy who was pretty fair in evaluating what we did in most cases and understood that we represented a real positive effect. But he, too, had a job and a department that had thousands of folks on there, and he had to deal with supporting his own. And when we exonerated the police department, we got the praise of the police department. When we called situations as we saw them, and intended to not really hold the police department up to the best position, the police department came down on us very, very hard. [laughter] Okay? So that tended to increase our credibility: the fact that the police department would attempt to discredit us. [laughter] Okay? So it wasn't too unusual to see us being knocked on the six o'clock news. But every knock was a push, because when they looked at the source of the knock, it tended to say, well, hey, there's a group of people that are out
Now, it got tougher later on, because we were having then internal organizational problems in the community. There was a time that most of the focus was toward the greater community trying to get more benefits into the ghetto and for black folk. But then when dissension began to come up between groups inside the community—
Tyler
Principally?
King
Well, you had the problems with the US [Organization] group and the [Black] Panthers and a lot of it really wasn't that they were that far apart. What we thought was true, and that was like there were informants that had been gotten and [had] gotten into and infiltrated those organizations, and they kept the stuff going. So it couldn't stop, and it couldn't slow down. But informants had crept into every area of America. Black community wasn't any different than any other community. They had them all over, and it was that kind of situation; there was
Tyler
Can you give examples of what you were doing and what was happening?
King
Well, some of these examples would be what today you'd call street gangs. And we were out there, at that point, preventing wars among street gangs. The street gangs had labels on them, just as they do now. They had their names and other kind of things, but I think we were able to stem the tide, and we were at the absolute vanguard of the situation of gang controls, because organizations were putting names on themselves and really they were just gangs.
Tyler
That would be— Could you name some?
King
Some of them are still around.
Tyler
US organization?
King
Well—
Tyler
The Black Panthers?
King
Some are still around.
Okay.
King
I'm out of that level at this point and for those—
Tyler
[laughter] Those in the know can take the reference, right?
King
[laughter] Yeah.
Tyler
[laughter] Okay.
King
It did keep things down considerably. We brought in every resource that we could in order to try to keep peace in the black community so that we would not be, in a sense, gunning each other down.
Tyler
Do you think then the Rumor Control was successful or it—
King
Tremendously successful. Even organizations that were fighting for the same crumbs of dollars that were coming from the feds by way of the city and the county, we even had to bring them in to say, "Hey, look, if you keep on fighting, one day neither one of you will win. None of your organizations." We took all of the members of the Model Cities group, for instance, and had a three-day seminar up at Kellogg [West Center for Continuing Education, California State Polytechnic University, Pomona] because of the internal fights over the crumbs on the table. And the people that were involved in the Model Cities Program and administration level said, "You can't do it. We won't authorize it. We will never participate in
Well, in the end they are the ones who benefited in spite of the fact that they tried to really hold us up to ill repute for doing it. But we did it anyway.
Tyler
But you said you, in terms of your credibility with the community, went up anyway because of this dance between official authority and your organization.
King
And also that we would take strong stands. We were very slow to come to judgment positions. It wasn't with us how fast, but it was how correct. And I can remember [the] L.A. Times reporters would be standing outside of the Rumor Control office—
Tyler
Waiting to get you guys' report?
King
Yeah. Standing out there. We just let them stay out there till we were ready to give our report. And hey, they'd take their report, and they'd run like a rabbit.
Tyler
[laughter] How did Rumor Control close down? How did, you know, its— Why did it close down? When?
King
Well, a number of things occurred. More black people were beginning to be hired by media. Community-relations groups were, and sections and departments, were being formed inside of the organizations. We had a television show, for instance, that went on for about two years. It was every Sunday night, it was five minutes on Channel 9. And sometimes, it was even ten [minutes].
Was this Rumor Control?
King
Yeah. And I'd do it about once a month. And other staff members would do it. Those who would do the TV were not professionals, per se, but all very good at their jobs. Again, like I say, we had Wendell Green, we had that guy who was the staff writer for the Times originally, and I've forgotten his name now. We had Jim [James H.] Cleaver. So we had professional people.
Tyler
Yeah, because, well, Jim Cleaver's been an editor for the [Los Angeles] Sentinel since then; Wendell Green had been a prior editor for the Sentinel and the California Eagle. So they were experienced with handling information, and—
King
Absolutely.
Tyler
—they were getting it. Yeah.
King
Absolutely. And, in addition later on, we put our own teletype machine in so that we could send out teletypes to all of the media. We had that access, and we sent them out. We sent out our daily releases; we also put pieces together and mailed them out, feature pieces, on recommendations; we were doing editorials in a sense. Like the editorials of today, we were doing a community editorial, and anyone who wanted to use it had access to it. They could use it; they did not have to pay us to use it. It went to all the community newspapers and the
Tyler
With information and expertise or funding?
King
Oh, we would give them expertise so that they could put a rumor control program together.
Tyler
And they would apply for federal funds, too?
King
We would tell them the options that were available in terms of funds, and they would sometimes look internal to their city for some funds, and sometimes they would look to the business community, sometimes to the county and state and feds, and other times it was a combination of all the above. Worked out quite well. I guess we did many, many radio programs where we did interviews. We spoke in front of many service clubs. I know I used to limit myself to three appearances a week because there were just too many.
Tyler
Oh, really?
King
And it worked out. Now, later on, years and years later, county of Los Angeles called me and asked me if I would assist them in setting up the rumor control program for the Olympics.
Tyler
Oh, really? For this Olympics? This past?
King
Yes. `Eighty-four Olympics. I did.
Tyler
[laughter] You did?
Yeah. And the board of supervisors called me down and unanimously praised me and gave me the usual little you know, awards, etc.—
Tyler
You mean, in the aftermath?
King
—for assisting in putting together the Olympic Rumor Control program.
Tyler
Now, were you just in an advisory capacity, not actually as an operator; you just showed them how to set it up and what would be the points of how to actually operate it and what they needed to look out for?
King
Absolutely. I was an advisor in connection with the situation and acted as a nonpaid consultant in order to put the package together in terms of implementation of the package.
Tyler
They wouldn't pay you for anything like that.
King
I wanted to make that as my contribution to the Olympics.
Tyler
They had offered to pay you?
King
There was discussion in connection with it, and I just stifled that discussion because I wanted, as a citizen, I wanted to do something. And I knew that I had more expertise in connection with the area rumors than anyone in America. I'm absolutely peerless in the area [laughter] of rumors.
Tyler
Well, how is that, then, it— Didn't you say you
King
Oh, that was the at the outset, of course; we're now going back about fifteen years.
Tyler
So, now, what year did the Rumor Control end?
King
`Seventy-three.
Tyler
And it [started] from '68 or so—
King
`Sixty-eight to '73.
Tyler
And it was funded through most of those periods?
King
Funded through varied sources of funding.
Tyler
What did the full- or part-time staff or volunteer staff— How large did this staff ever get?
King
The staff? I think we had about twenty people.
Tyler
All of them full-timers? Paid?
King
I'm only thinking of full-time paid people. We had about twenty. And we had a lot of volunteers. A lot of volunteers. But it was very interesting to see that fifteen years later, when they got ready to put the Olympics together, they thought back about the Los Angeles Rumor Control. [laughter] And, of course, because I was still visible, it was not difficult for them to locate me.
Tyler
Still active.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Now, did you ever run for political office? Well, I know you just ran recently, but earlier, did you run for political office?
Yes, I ran in 1972.
Tyler
That was the first time?
King
That was the first time I ran for a political office. Public political office.
Tyler
Which was?
King
And I ran for the [California] State Assembly.
Tyler
Who, what district?
King
At that time, it was the Fifty-sixth Assembly District. And I ran against a ten-year incumbent. [His] name was Charley [Charles H.] Warren.
Tyler
Black?
King
No, a white guy. Super-liberal.
Tyler
The Fifty-sixth District is— [Augustus F.] Hawkins was Fifty-fifth?
King
Well, they've changed the numbers now a couple of times since then. This is a district that was a combination of the black community and the white community. It was about maybe a third black as far as the district was concerned. And the black vote had always been the basic stability of the liberal, the super-lib who was the legislator. And he had been in for ten years. And he had done his homework, done a good job.
I decided to run on a Republican ticket, and I think that we had about a 28 percent registration, something like that—28, 29. And the guy had just inroads all over, and
Tyler
[laughter] You want to see how far you can travel?
King
I decided that I would run and that I would put together a large group of volunteers. I'd been involved in community kind of activities all the time, and that's what I did. There were some disappointing situations that occurred, in terms of the money-raising, but there was never any problem in connection with the participants. We simply had hundreds of volunteers every day.
Tyler
Of what, what types of people? What age level? How did you get the volunteers?
King
Really, it came out of my background. Background of in the fifties being an activist, in the sixties being an activist, and that's where it really came from. In fact, the first survey that they did in connection with me really kind of startled me, because I was identified more as a community activist than I was as a bail bondsman.
Tyler
[laughter] You went the other way around?
King
Well, you know, I just, I began to think about this. I said, "For goodness sake! I'm more identified [with] what I do on the community level than I am [with] what I do in my business," and found that somewhat
But we had a great campaign. At that time, a rather strange situation occurred as far as the Democratic party was concerned. And they made some major changes afterward. I ran as a Republican and I got a majority of the black votes, and the black community was registered approximately nine-to-one as far as Democrats and Republicans were concerned, which blew the bubble. [The] bubble is that if a qualified Republican did run, that it was possible to get the black vote. Now, the fact that no one else has ever done it here in Los Angeles—
Tyler
This was a white candidate?
King
He was a white candidate but very, very liberal and sponsored all the liberal movements in connection with the black community.
Tyler
Did he have a good black-support block?
King
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Tyler
But you won 90 percent of the black vote?
King
He had [Thomas] Bradley as chairman of his committee.
Tyler
But you won the majority of the black vote?
King
Yes.
Tyler
But the white votes killed you.
King
The white liberal votes killed me. The white, Democratic liberal votes killed me. I got a pretty good in
Tyler
So what were the benefits of that, or what happened in the aftermath? What did you go on to? Did you try to run for office again?
King
Well, yeah, I ran the following year.
Tyler
For what office?
King
I ran the following year for the city council.
Tyler
L.A. City Council?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
What district?
King
The Tenth District, [where] I live. That was Tom Bradley's old district; he had run and become mayor.
Tyler
Yeah—
King
And I think it was pretty clear that—
Tyler
Now, this is '74, '73?
King
'Seventy-three. I think it was pretty clear—
Tyler
This is against [David S.] Cunningham?
King
Well, there were twenty-eight people in the race.
Tyler
[laughter] Twenty-eight had filed?
King
It was a marathon in the sense of the number of people who started, but it was generally understood that whoever Tom Bradley anointed, that the resources—since he
Tyler
Now, why did you run? Did you think you had a serious chance to win?
King
Well, I would have had a serious chance to win, except the fact that Tom originally took a position. I believe that he was not going to get involved. Whoever could win would win. But later on, if my recollection is correct—and I don't want to etch this in cement—but later on he took a position about a candidate, whereas he said at first anybody who can win, win; it's going to be an open race. An open race soon got changed to a closed race. So if Tom Bradley had stayed out of the situation, I would have been a very, very formidable candidate. Because I'd just run.
Tyler
You didn't seek any endorsement of Bradley, did you?
No.
Tyler
Cunningham has always chased a Bradley endorsement, hasn't he?
King
Yes. Then, too, he had a very diverse situation. The entire Asian community went for the one Asian that was running. As far as Hispanics were concerned, I had the endorsement of the Hispanics in the assembly race just a year before, and they'd get all confused because of the fact that Bradley, of course, was going to be appointing people to commissions and various other kind of things and the power had changed. Power had changed.
Tyler
How many votes did you get? Where did you place in there?
King
I was fourth, if I'm not mistaken.
Tyler
Fourth?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
That's pretty good.
King
Didn't spend much money in it because of the futility of, you know, the whole thing. It was very clear that it wasn't anything that could be done to really win on that matter.
Tyler
Did you get the endorsement of the Republican party in either race? Or a local apparatus?
King
I had the endorsement when I ran for assembly. I did not have the endorsement when I ran for city council
Tyler
Oh, really? Unless they can get some sort of consensus on one candidate?
King
Well, yeah, I guess it's just a mechanism that's inside the party to keep it from self-destructing. And like in the primaries, the party doesn't endorse anyone when it's one Republican running against other Republican for the Republican knot. Those nominations by party all come together after one candidate comes out of the primaries. It would be a little different if you had a situation where there was only one Republican candidate. Then you could get the endorsement. But given all, hey, I certainly was alone; I was not embarrassed by the race in the least.
Tyler
Now, did you run for office again?
King
I most certainly did. And I ran—
Tyler
Was that the most recent? No—
King
The most recent one, which was 1985.
Tyler
City controller.
King
What motivated you there to run?
Tyler
Well, when I looked at the whole situation, actually, I didn't see anybody down there that had any real name identification. And I thought that my name
Did you get the Republican party backing?
King
I was endorsed by the governor and—
Tyler
Yeah?
King
—by the state chairman.
Tyler
And they brought resources to your campaign.
King
I would have gotten tremendous resources had I been able to get into the runoff, but there wasn't enough time. Most of the other candidates had started running six months before the filing date. And I really did not get into the fray until about the filing date. That was when I got into the situation. So they were putting their coffers together, getting their resources, getting the commitment of the people that were doing all that at an early point. And I had put my operation together after. Well, I decided on one thing—that there was no need in pledging the family farm in connection with the situation, so I decided that we were going to spend money based on what we took in. And
Tyler
And you spent as much as what?
King
About twenty.
Tyler
Twenty.
King
Yeah, less than twenty. However, when the race was over, we did not have a deficit. Every bill was paid. Can't beat that. Cannot beat that—
Tyler
And that Kenneth Hahn had made that a high-profile office.
King
Well, Ira Reiner was the one who really gave the office some—
Tyler
Ira Reiner?
King
Yeah. Ira Reiner really moved it into the front row and made it extremely visible.
Tyler
Then Hahn followed and—
King
Hahn followed; he did what he could and he improved the office. To some extent, I think you can say that he made some major steps in terms of the changing of the computer systems and those kind of things, and the management style. Doing a very good job down there. Now, it may have simply been the time and the computers would have changed anyway, or whatever, but you have to give
Tyler
Yeah. Whether it was some big vision of theirs or not.
King
During these last years, sort of after '73, I decided to go back and begin to focus more on my business, to focus more in terms of being involved in educational pursuits. I had taken on a task of going out to Pepperdine [University] at the graduate school of business [School of Business and Management] where I worked as a part-time administrator there. I later went to Cal State L.A. [California State University, Los Angeles], and I accepted a position of assistant professor and I taught in the Pan-African Studies section—
Tyler
This is what year?
King
I guess we're now talking about '77, maybe '78. I went out to the Cal State—
Tyler
Who hired you? Who was chairman? Chairperson? Was it Dr. [Aida Takla] O'Riley?
King
Yeah, yeah. O'Riley was chair.
Tyler
Was [Maulana Ron] Karenga teaching there then?
King
Karenga was teaching part-time; he was also teaching at San Diego [State University] and he used to commute.
Tyler
Jim Cleaver was teaching?
King
Jim Cleaver was teaching and was doing a very creditable job teaching; basically, it involved newspapers
Tyler
Black journalism.
King
—and the practicals of black journalism. He would take his class over to the Sentinel office on occasion, and they would actually meet there at the office, and they'd begin to see what a paper is, how they turned it out, and who was responsible for various things. So he did a real hands-on situation, did a very good job. And—
Tyler
Now you all were brought on board teaching there about the same time, then.
King
Yeah, about the same time. Diane Watson was there—
Tyler
Teaching what?
King
—yeah, and Christopher—
Tyler
Van—Dr. Van Christopher.
King
Yeah, Van Christopher, who ultimately became chair, was teaching—
Tyler
He was sort of an interim chair.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Now, how was it that Margaret was— Wasn't Margaret Wright teaching there?
King
Margaret Wright was teaching—
Tyler
A local activist with the schools?
King
Yes.
Tyler
Did Mary Henry ever come on board there?
King
I don't recall Mary Henry as being—
But Margaret Wright did.
King
Margaret was there.
Tyler
She taught community activism, right?
King
And did a good job at it, yeah.
Tyler
Yeah. Now, how did this whole cluster of activists get there? What was happening?
King
Well, I think people were beginning to respect and wanted to reexamine what had in fact taken place. They wanted to get away from just the theoretical approaches, and they knew that there were a few players that were still around who were the real movers back, and they—
Tyler
Is this Dr. O'Riley?
King
O'Riley was doing an outreach situation trying to bring in people who had both the practical experience and also had the education credentials. Or the ability to express themselves in [an] academic setting. Right.
Tyler
Now, what do you think about that whole experience and the whole program?
King
Well, number one, they came to me and they did seek me out—
Tyler
This is O'Riley and her people, Van Christopher?
King
Yeah, yeah. They came here; they came to my house. You know, made an appointment. Came over here and asked, "Will you teach a class?" I enjoyed it. It's been, I guess, three years out there.
You taught three years there?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Was it one class per quarter, or what?
King
One class, and then it was two classes. I think it stayed pretty well at two; they tried to—
Tyler
Two in the evening, during the day, or what?
King
They were evening classes, except that I had one morning class part of the time. But that, I think, was only for one semester when I had the morning class. And either was okay with me; either early in the morning or in the evening, I could deal with quite easily. Midday was a bit of a problem. I couldn't deal with that. And it was only when they came to me and they said, "Look, we want you to teach three classes," that I said, "Let me reevaluate this situation. Am I becoming too proficient in something that is really, basically, part-time as far as I am concerned and a way of me enjoying—"
Tyler
They're trying to get you a full-time job, here.
King
Oh, my goodness! And people were talking about tenure tracks and all those things, so I said, [laughter] hey, I think I better pack my bags and step out of here. Basically, I'm a practitioner, and I like this idea of working a part-time—
Tyler
And either that or it was going to be passing through?
So then I simply said, "Well, I just don't have the discretionary time to continue." And I did have one little bit of a problem and that problem, oddly enough, was that the evening classes generally started in the neighborhood of six o'clock, and it meant that I had to go through that, penetrate that, really penetrate the traffic getting to Cal State L.A.; it's a five o'clock traffic rush going in that direction, and that didn't sit too well with me. So I had been— They had asked me if I would continue on and get further into it, and I finally said, "Well, I'm going to pass, and I will work on until you can get someone to replace me." And that was basically it. Ultimately—
Tyler
Now, when you left, did the other activist instructors remain there, or they shortly left, too? How did that situation change?
King
Well, [James M.] Rosser came to the university.
Tyler
This is the president, Rosser.
King
Yeah. And Rosser did a national search for someone to take over the chair of the department. And about that time, now 1979, I had two other situations that were very important to me: one, I had become president—well, chair of the board—at Laurence University. Laurence University is a small school; it is based in Santa Barbara and we basically function at the Ph.D. level, with a master's degree from a full accredited school as entry level. Those
Tyler
And concentrate on the Laurence—
King
Laurence in Santa Barbara only, rather than Laurence in Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C.
Tyler
And teach. Now, who became chair at Cal State L.A.?
King
I never actually met the gentleman who came in. On one occasion, I was to go out there, chat with him; another occasion, we were to put something together—
Tyler
His first name is Michael. Well, anyway, why did Rosser want another chair, and—
King
Oh, I don't know; I imagine that he's like anybody else; he wants to bring in his own team. And by bringing in— Whoever he'd bring in would more relate to him.
Tyler
Yeah. Were you aware of any crisis situation there? Black studies?
King
There was a minor crisis. I don't think it was that
Tyler
Like what?
King
Well, you had the former chair [Sylvester Akalanu] who was an African fellow who had been chair for a considerable period of time, and he was at odds with the administration, at least so it was reputed, and maybe at odds for some very good purposes, because he was interested in really getting his program through. As most people are who become chairs; they want to have an impact. And when O'Riley came in it was perceived as a big problem, but it really wasn't that big of a problem.
Tyler
Oh, Michael [T.] Martin.
King
Martin is the guy's name who came in, yeah. Never met the gentleman.
Tyler
I did and taught for him, well, for—
King
I really want to meet—
Tyler
No, no. I didn't teach for him. I taught in the history department, but I met him. So you don't know the aftermath or what happened, right?
King
No, no. In fact, when I step out of things, I generally don't go back.
Tyler
The reason I mention that is that after that time period, I talked with Dr. Van Christopher and then, four or five years later, taught there, and there was an uproar because of the activist groups that were there. The other
King
I left before that really came to a real issue. And became the president of the Independent Bail Agents Association of California in '79.
Tyler
Was this the first time you became an officer in there?
King
No, I'd been an officer— The organization had different—
Tape Number: XIV, Side One
August 11, 1985
King
My method is to just keep doing constant maintenance rather than big splashes. You know, when it comes to— As I look back though, the people that they did bring on in the Cal State L.A. [California State University, Los Angeles] program when I was out there all had certainly the minimum academic credentials in addition to being very active, and they had the activist background.
Tyler
And productive. As, again, as I said, a lot of focus was around [Maulana] Ronald Karenga, who— And there were many verified reports.
King
Well, admittedly, most of us that were outside practitioners then, and they had a couple of guys who were lawyers there, obviously—
Tyler
Stan [Stanley R.] Malone?
King
No, he wasn't there. Can't pull the name off the top of my head, but obviously, they then—
Tyler
Arnett [L.] Hartsfield [Jr.]? No?
King
Arnett was at [California State University] Long Beach.
Tyler
Yes, okay. I know that, too.
King
But, again, those people that were pulled in to a large extent had the academic background plus. Certainly Diane Watson had. I know she had a master's degree, and
Tyler
No.
King
—in the other days. I think [James H.] Cleaver came with a bachelor's only, but the editor of the largest and most successful black paper that's ever been in the history of California. They had a fellow who was teaching records [Logan Westbrooks] who was involved in the record business and was teaching how to do that and also manage entertainers and that whole record business and the whole theatrical situation. His credentials were peerless. So I think that what had happened was, by and large, they had actually gotten together a very, very good nonthreatening group as I would see it.
Tyler
Yeah, as a group. As a group.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Again, when I came there, well, actually, before I came there, I went out there and did some interviews. [laughter] Well, conversations. Karenga was the focus. He poisoned that whole experiment.
King
Well, Karenga and I were there together. Let me
Tyler
Did you write a bond for him when he was in that legal hassle, when he was sent to prison?
King
Yeah, but that was just routine; I mean that was just handling another bond. It had nothing to do with— I think everybody's aware of that because it was—
Tyler
Maybe I shouldn't even mention that—
King
Well, it was on television, you know, and all that kind of situation, so it isn't— I don't disclose anything in connection with my business, no way, but, hey, if it's on the six o'clock news, I mean, there's no need to—
Tyler
Yeah.
King
You know what I mean, it's a—
Tyler
It wasn't like this was a private arrest.
King
[laughter] Yeah.
Tyler
[laughter] Where nobody knew his business.
King
And basically, it was a private-type offense kind of thing he was charged with. Didn't really deal with the general public as such, you know, fraud and all those kind of things. It didn't deal with any of those things. But
Tyler
Well, Dr. Van Christopher said that Dr. [Aida Takla] O'Riley was frightened of Karenga and would not and did not interview him; he had to interview Karenga. And he was the one, along with the other people that ran down the detail of the problems they had with Karenga, but I don't know if I need to belabor that—
King
Yeah, oh, yeah, they may have been having problems, but I wasn't having any.
Tyler
Yeah, yeah.
King
And maybe it was that my background was that I—
Tyler
No, he wanted to be chairman. And so that's what the whole— It was a power struggle.
King
Yeah.
Tyler
But, anyway, what I was going to ask you in sort of winding things up: What's in the future for you? What are you going to do?
King
Well—
Tyler
You going to run for office again? What are your plans?
King
Well, let me back up and quickly precede that by just a little bit about what I did in the meantime there.
Again, I doubt if we'll ever be able to get the financial backing in order to get fully accredited. We have applied for accreditation three times, meaning with WASC [Western Association of Schools and Colleges]. Do you know that they have never completely turned us down? That our application was not a turndown, but is still technically pending? [laughter] And the reason is, the results of what we do is so good until they don't want to throw us out, but you got to remember that's a club, being a member of one of the five national accreditation organizations. And this is the western of those, so someday we will go again to see. But they keep saying, well, there is no way for you to survive, because you don't have the revenues coming in, and you don't have the guaranteed sources of money and you're not handling the millions. And I guess as one person so ably put it, have you ever seen a school that had a football team that wasn't accredited? Well, we won't have a football team, either. Okay? So we're still pending with the WASC at this
Tyler
Well, fantastic. Who knows what might happen? Who knows?
King
Yeah.
Tyler
Well, let me ask you this: What's your future? What are you going to be doing?
King
Okay, I'm—
Tyler
What do you see yourself—
King
I still need to run. I wanted to get back into the military situation to some extent, because as we had previously discussed, I had been a pilot in World War II. So I made application to get back into the reserves. And because of my unique background, there was an opportunity for me to get in. And I was appointed as a colonel in the California State Military Reserve. I functioned there for a considerable period of time and did what was judged to be a very able job. I represent the military and some of the other rather sensitive situations, depending upon where it's coming from, and also if some situation were to occur. At least one of my initial assignments was if something were to occur where the [National] Guard happened to be called in as a result of some major riot that had racial overtones or other things, that they would have
Tyler
The National Guard didn't tap you for any sort of input like that during the Watts riot, did they?
King
No.
Tyler
But in the aftermath, they became aware—
King
Of the need for that kind of a situation. Yeah. And I was brought in at that particular point by General [Frank] Schober, and that was my assignment. I had two assignments, but that's one. Later on, as somewhat of a reward for what I had done and my participation, I was promoted to the rank of brigadier general. Well, in the state of California, as far as the whole hierarchy is concerned, as far as the state is concerned, this is the largest combination reserve and national guard in the country. There had only been one prior general, and he had been in the National Guard.
Tyler
A black, you mean?
King
Yeah. That's Cal [Calvin G.] Franklin. Cal
Tyler
That was in case they needed to be mobilized for some riot or terrorist activity?
King
Well, they were mobile, they were mobilized. I mean—
Tyler
The National Guard were?
King
Oh, my goodness, yes. Yeah, they were ready.
Tyler
What, they had them stationed around locally?
Yeah, very, very, very almost invisible around there. Did not have a visible role; you did not see them. They were guarding water facilities and—
Tyler
On a twenty-four hour basis? Throughout the whole Olympics?
King
Twenty-four hours, and we had ninety helicopters.
Tyler
National Guard helicopters?
King
[laughter] That's correct.
Tyler
And they were, what, stationed around?
King
Oh, yeah, right out, just forty miles from L.A. And there were literally thousands of National Guard people. They were down at Piper [Technical] Center, where all the networking takes place, where all the radar equipment was involved and communications center, and in touch with all of the key people that were coming in. They were all being covered, not only on the ground by the forces, okay, but in the air; they were being tracked. When dignitaries would come in from other countries, hey, there was a helicopter up there following the car. Well, all of those things. Well, in any event, I did my participation; I represented the National Guard in front of community groups where there was a misunderstanding as to the role of the guard. I appeared in front of the Los Angeles City Council in connection with legislation that had to be opened up in order to allow the money to come in. See, with federal
Tyler
Boulevard.
King
Boulevard. So I am looking forward to continuing these things that I have and a greater emphasis on, as always, a greater emphasis toward internationalizing toward my family at my level, and my grandchildren. Also, I have brought my father [Celestus A. King, Jr.] home to live with me. He is in his eighties at this point, and not only has he been a great father to me, he has always been my best friend. And I am not going to take any risks with him. I'm going to keep him as long as I can, and I know that if he's with me, that it will reflect in better days for him, and, of course, better days for me. Well, what a fantastic ending. It's been a pleasure. [laughter] We'll shake on that, my friend.
Yeah.
King
You know, as they say in the radio commercial, "Let me see you shake hands."
Tape Number: XV, Side One
March 27, 1987
Kelley
Now, when did you first conceive of the idea of changing the name of the street to Martin Luther King [Jr.] Boulevard?
King
Well, I felt that there was a clear need with the [1984] Olympics coming to Los Angeles for us to have an opportunity to display to the international community that Martin Luther King [Jr.] was a major factor as far as Los Angeles is concerned. Obviously, Los Angeles had already a very enviable reputation as far as a good place to live, a reasonably integrated type of society. [There was] the opportunity for it to be measured on a multiethnic basis as a standard for the world. But there was no street here of any significance that was named after a black. There was a small cul-de-sac that was named Rochester Drive, or whatever it was [Rochester Circle], that was over between Western Avenue and Arlington [Avenue] that had been put there. Rochester [real name Eddie Anderson] having been somewhat of a local guy on the Jack Benny Show and he had a beautiful home and so that cul-de-sac was named after him. The other street that had been named was Medgar Evers [Avenue]. There was a very small street in the Watts community that was named there. There was a street that was named very close to what was then Santa Barbara Avenue
Kelley
I see.
King
What we had to have was something that would be important. We had to have something that was politically feasible and I began to look around at various streets. I looked at Exposition Boulevard, which went to the [Los Angeles] Memorial Coliseum and had been used in the 1932 Olympics as the final leg going to the Coliseum just as it is in today's L.A. marathon. I looked at Western Avenue, and I looked at Crenshaw [Boulevard]. Crenshaw seemed too remote, and when I looked at Western Avenue, which is the longest major arterial street that cuts through the black community and possibly one of the longest streets in Los Angeles, it became politically impossible to deal with
Kelley
Now, when you did all this preliminary, you know walking the streets, what year was this? Was this '83? Was this—
King
I think it was '82.
Kelley
When you sort of officially opened your campaign, what period was that approximately?
King
I think I sent the letter to Bob Farrell in 1982. I'm going to look that letter up. I guess it has some historical significance then.
Kelley
Yeah.
King
I wrote a letter and the letter was probably not more than twenty lines, and in that two paragraphs: one was, you know, a hello Bob approach, and the second was, I ask him if he would carry a piece of city legislation, an ordinance, to change the name of the street. And I mailed it to Bob. Now, at this point I made all of these assessments and I decided it could conceivably be a little bit of a problem, but the immediate response was so favorable until I said, "Hey, this is going to be a piece of cake." Little did I know what I was facing. Very little did I know. People came out of the woodwork. The Hispanic folks came out because they thought Santa Barbara
Kelley
I see.
King
I went to the library and spent time, because I needed to find out something about Santa Barbara, even though my business had been located on the street since 1968. I found out I didn't know as much as I wanted to know or needed to know. A group was formed to counter the change and they called public meetings in connection with it, and what had to happen was we either had to fight the situation politically or kind of forget it.
Kelley
Did this opposition group formalize itself? Did it have a name of any kind, or was it just sort of a coalition?
King
It ended up a coalition of groups, and at that particular point, there were a number of meetings that were called, and what I decided was that I would deal with each individual meeting.
Kelley
I see.
King
And every meeting that was there in opposition, my voice was heard and support and let's move on it.
Kelley
Do you recall some of the more prominent sort of leadership that was opposed to the idea?
King
Well, it was basically block clubs, and it was all long-time ownership people, and I think that the one thing that— One of the things that helped me was that the people
Kelley
Yeah.
King
Okay. Well, they appeared in front of the Crenshaw Chamber of Commerce and picked up the backing of the Crenshaw Chamber of Commerce, and Harold Washington went over and spoke with the people who operate the May Company and who operate the Broadway and other business in there and nullified a lot of the opposition in connection with name change. When we went in front of the city council committee, and I believe we had two hearings in front of committees, the first hearing in front of a committee they really tried to derail the whole situation. It was suggested that number one, that Santa Barbara isn't big enough for a giant like Martin Luther King. That it ought to be the Century Freeway, which politically has been entangled in the quagmire for the last fifteen years and they haven't been able to get me on any street or freeway named Century. You know, it had been hung up in the federal courts, and finally the mandate order— And of course, politically you're looking at fifteen separate jurisdictions that touch that freeway. So, politically that was impossible, but that was one of the devices that was used. One of the city councilmen who was very much opposed to this—the gentleman is deceased now—represented the Pacoima area [Howard Finn]. He was very much opposed
Kelley
So Reverend Thomas Kilgore [Jr.] was very much involved.
King
I talked directly to Tom in connection with it, who is a neighbor of mine. Tom was very supportive in connection with it. We went to almost every group that we could go to. At that time the Black Agenda [Inc.] was surfacing and they were— They had a large membership at that point. The Black Agenda endorsed it. I went to front
Kelley
What does ACC stand for?
King
It stands for— I'll have to look at the paper. Jesus, it's ACC News. It's A Corporation for Christ.
Kelley
Okay.
King
But it is the population that they touch that makes it so important. It goes directly to the churches and that's where it's distributed every Sunday. So, that was important. There are two major preachers associations. I appeared in front of both of those preacher groups and they probably represented about 350 preachers in the black
Kelley
That's great.
King
So, when we went to war, we went with 350 preachers and busloads of people. When we showed up at the city hall, there was not even standing room. People were out in the hall. That was when this matter came up. It was covered as a major political event. All of this was something that I thought would quietly just slide through and it would go through very easily. At that particular point, the opposition, too, was there, and they had some homeowner people, and people who'd been living in the area. And there were a number of whites that were involved and these white people were showing up because they were opposed to Martin Luther King.
It is difficult to change a tradition. Santa Barbara Avenue has been here a long time. So, even my spouse [Anita Givens King] told me. She says, "You're going to run into trouble with that." And she's a native of Los Angeles and grew up just a few blocks off Santa Barbara. She says, "You think that's going to be an easy one." She says, "You're going to be in for a surprise." And she said, "All of my generation. We all grew up walking across Santa Barbara, and you're just going to find there's a lot of latent opposition." And, of course, I kind of laughed it off. It was over breakfast, and I said this is not
We got a list of the cities. Every other city that had a Martin Luther King street, and surprisingly, it wasn't as high as I thought it was in terms of the numbers. Many have come along after the Los Angeles situation. Even though cities like Chicago had South Park Way, which was changed to Martin Luther King Drive, and Atlanta, of course, had one. But, you know, there were many, many other places that didn't. Since then, Houston has put one in and just numerous cities throughout the country. Well, this began to pick up national attention, and I could not imagine why it was becoming such a cause célèbre. It did not seem to me to be that big of an issue.
Now, when the people came in, one of the problems that was developing was the level of seriousness of these people. They did not want to lose. When we finally got it passed, we had then appeared in front of the full council on three occasions. Major legislation does not require over two appearances in front of the city council. Three times. When we finally won, the situation that I described to you before was we brought Jesse [L.] Jackson in to speak. We had Stevie Wonder. We had the most prestigious preachers in this town; those that were bishops. We had the top business people in the black community there to testify. We had everything that you could put together in terms of making an excellent package, and we made our presentation. We did, in fact, win. I must say that Jesse Jackson was extremely helpful when he came in. He was ushered in the back way. There was no way to get through hardly in the council anyway. It was tight. I ushered him in the back way, and Jesse's comment to the city council was that Martin Luther King [Jr.] is a man who had changed this country from having an image of ill repute to a point of good repute. I can't think of the exact quotation, but Jesse's great for these one-liners, and the one that he stated was magnificent. All right? Stevie, too, was good in his low, slow voice as he brought [it] out. It was a celebrity day, and hey, we won.
So, when we won, I knew that there was going to be a big move that would be moving towards the mayor not to sign, because this was likewise an affluent group. So, understanding the processes then, I did not leave city hall. I let the other people walk out, and when the auditorium cleared, I went up to the then acting mayor, who was Joel Wachs, who was president of the city council, and I refreshed his memory that he is the mayor and that I wanted him to sign the ordinance now, which would cut off any activity of people lobbying Tom Bradley not to sign it. Not that I had felt that there was any problem with Tom doing it—not at all. That was not it. But then, on the other hand, I wanted to be sure that I could close this off.
Kelley
Right, because you're never sure.
King
Talked to him and finally he said okay. Gil Lindsay was still there and, of course, Bob Farrell was still there, and I hollered out, you know, to them, "Come on!" And a city hall photographer was still there. We moved the ordinance over, and we set it at the main council table there. Joel Wachs was getting ready to sign the ordinance. I said, "Joel, would you mind using my fifteen-cent pen?" The pen that's got on it "Bail Bonds—24-hour service" and the phone number. [laughs] I tossed it to him. And he said, "Sure, I'll be glad to do that, Celes."
What date was that?
King
The date is right here on the ordinance. Let me get up.
Tape Number: XV, Side Two
March 27, 1987
Kelley
So that ordinance was signed September 15, 1982.
King
Right.
Kelley
So that was, basically, just practically an entire year of grueling day-to-day political activity?
King
Yeah. Actually, it was about a year and a half.
Kelley
Year and a half.
King
But visibly about a year. Visibly for other people. Okay, we got the ordinance signed. Now, I had to make a major concession, because the TV people were just really working very much on this story. Almost daily somebody from the media would come by, camera in hand, taking pictures of Santa Barbara, taking pictures of the bail bond office. They would have me come out and ask me, well, what do you think about spending all this money to change these signs and on and on and on. The business people in the community, to a large extent, except the Asians, did not want to see a change. Again, as I say, Harold Washington and Gwen Greene nullified the Crenshaw area, but by and large— Now, one of the persons at— And these people are all friends of mine. We just didn't agree. Now, one of the persons owned one of the ticket places down the street, and he had some very valid reasons. He said, "Look, let me carry you into my place
Very shortly after the ordinance was signed, there was a case filed in the Los Angeles Superior Court to nullify the action of the city council on the basis of cost—that it was an invalid approach to spending taxpayers' money. Needless to say they had renamed many other streets. None
Kelley
On the same basis?
King
On the same basis. It was an appeal. They took an appeal. It does not seem to me that my recollection shows that they went through the appellate court, but somehow they took the issue circumventing, I believe, the appellate court and going directly to the supreme court on some parts of the issue. The supreme court is normally pretty slow on doing whatever it is that they do. The supreme court sustained the action of the Los Angeles Superior Court and that was when it was over, but the matter did not die a quick death. It hangs and hangs and hangs before it came to a final rest. Then, on Martin Luther King's birthday, we decided to have a march, and the high school that I attended, which was Manual Arts [High School], that was our staging area. We had approximately five thousand people.
Wow.
King
We gathered, and we had the march from Manual Arts High School to the corner of Western. The Santa Barbara signs were taken down. The first one that was taken down was presented to me. We had a rally on the parking lot of Ralphs [supermarket]. Ralphs, which was not opposed, but not supportive, presented me with a plaque commending me for my effort in connection with it. A lot of people who were opposed to the situation, after seeing and hearing that five thousand people had walked down the street— Every politician that had supported it pretty well showed up. Congressman Julian Dixon flew in from Washington [D.C.] so that he could be here. State Senator Bill [William] Greene was in the front line. And the man who did the most, Bob Farrell, was right there. Bob Farrell is a very competent and very sensitive public official. He worked hard, and many, many people in his own district were opposed to it. In addition, there were people who filed against him to run against him. So he is a stand-up guy. He stood up—never backed up one inch. We need more Bob Farrells.
Kelley
After the change took place and went into effect, did you still receive any opposition or any sentiment, or did you recognize any sentiment, in the community, of regret? Or did people simply just accept it now that the
King
The majority of the people simply accepted. There were a few people who, for about a year or so, when they'd see me at social affairs or civic or political affairs, would mention to me that they did not think that I did a very good thing in initiating that name change. And, at that particular point, since the issue was decided, I generally never got into lengthy conversations. By that time, I guess, I had some other projects that I was probably involved with.
Kelley
When you first initiated the movement, did you form a committee? Did you bring certain individuals in with you when you first started doing this, or was this an individual thing?
King
No. No committees. No committees. The first thing that I did that was public on the situation—the first thing that I did—was to write the letter to Bob Farrell asking him if he would carry the piece. That was the first time it went public.
Kelley
So basically you just had your own initiative and effort which led to the change.
King
Well, hindsight is always so much better. I underestimated the opposition to it. So much so until I thought that it would just simply walk through. I didn't feel compelled, because I had pretty much of a natural
Kelley
Yeah, that's absolutely true, you know. Well, I'd like to now turn to another issue, and that is, your involvement with the Los Angeles City Commission on Human Relations. From what I understand, you served on the committee from 1968 to 1973 under Mayor Yorty?
King
Yes.
Kelley
What do you know of the background and history of the commission? Was it something that you were familiar with long before you were involved?
We started talking about a city commission, in my best recollection, it was in the mid-fifties. The county had a county commission. And the county commission was in the very forefront of attempting to change attitudes of the general community so that it would be more tolerant, more understanding. The executive director was a guy by the name of [John] Buggs of the [Los Angeles] County Human Relations [Commission].
Kelley
That's John Buggs?
King
John, yeah. He did a tremendous job. Probably, at that time, he took a lot of risks. That risk would not be noticeable today, but in those days it was a real risk. He was, of course, probably the only major black official that was in county government at that time as a department head. It was a small department, but he was a department head, which meant, of course, that he had an opportunity to sit in on a lot of the senior staff meetings. You know, things of that nature.
Now, we in the black community started with the idea of, hey, we need a city counterpart. It was picked up to some extent by some parts of the white community. The parts of the white community basically sort of wanted some thing that would reduce the impact of the county, but for those of us that were in the black community, we did not necessarily see it as a situation that could be used
Kelley
Okay.
King
Well, anyway, Poulson would not support the idea to a point where he made it happen. Now, Poulson did give lip service in connection with it, and in the 1961 elections, in the primary, one of the persons who ran was Sam Yorty. Sam Yorty had been a prior assemblyman, but more importantly, he had been a prior congressman, and he had
Now, we didn't have an issue with the Yorty campaign, but an issue just fell into our laps. I'm talking about for the total city. An issue turned out to be that Poulson had signed off on picking up the trash in two different receptacles: one for combustible trash and another one for the things that would not burn. So it meant that the housewives in the city had to have two trash containers that they carried out and put in front of their houses for the trash to pick up. This was the issue—trash. Sam came onto a study that had been commissioned and done and paid for by the city, and I've forgotten the name of that study now. But he got this study, and the study said that it was economically infeasible to do it by this method. This meant that you had two trash pick-ups, and it was every other week you would put out the things that were noncombustible and then every week you would put out all the things that were combustible. See, this goes back to the time we used to have an incinerator in the back yard. You'd burn up all of your own combustibles, but the air pollution was becoming a factor. So the environmentalists weren't out there on the street raising a lot of—you know, doing their number. Okay. But, there was this situation of the basin, and here, every morning—and they set times at which you could burn—every morning here is this smoke going up all over the city. So that's why they had to make
So Sam got this one issue, and we had the police issue out here. And we did not, in a sense, cut a deal. We just talked about what our demands were, and we all knew it was illegal to cut a deal. He knew it, and we did too. So we made it in terms of these are demands. Sam said straight ahead. The guy worked like a Trojan. We finally got a hold of a few bucks, and we opened up an office down on Wilshire just before the campaign—the primary—was over. We just did get into it. On election night there were so few people in this place. We were up on the second story up over a drugstore or some place. There were so few people, you could have shot a rifle across the floor ten different places, and you would not have come close to anybody. I mean, there was no crowd, no nothing. There was a guy who was number two [Patrick D. McGee]; he was a Harvard graduate and a member of the [city council]. He's standing up out in the [San Fernando] Valley with the microphone in front of him saying he thanks the people of Los Angeles for putting him in the runoff. Now, we were running real right close behind him. So anyway, we made it and got in a runoff. When we got in a runoff, hey, we moved. Poulson lost his voice. Something happened. He had laryngitis and had difficulty speaking. He also had a small ranch in Oregon, and somebody went up there and came
Now, we go into Sam and we say, here are the demands that we made. Sam's answer was, "Every concern that you had will be met and right away." We appointed more commissioners than had been appointed in this history of Los Angeles all the way. Just put them on. I was to go on one of the commissions, but because I was so active in the rights movement, I knew that it would be difficult. So I called my mother [Leontyne Butler King] on the telephone, who had been very much an activist in our community and always had, along with my father [Celestus A. King, Jr.]. We went into the mayor's office, because one of the slots was for me and for those people who had actually gone out and done the work. I must have gone out twenty-five nights with Sam, just he and I. We'd just start, and I'd get a list of everything that was happening and we got out two or three times a week. He'd drive by, and he'd be sitting in my kitchen when I'd get home. Anita would feed him dinner, and we'd go out and hit the street and go to every bar that you could find and every activity that you could find, and some of them they wouldn't let us speak. Oh, just on and
So my mother and I met at the mayor's office, and we went in and I had explained to my mother that I did not feel it would be in my best interest, because I was simply too active for this kind of a situation. Also, one of the city councilmen—I've forgotten the guy's name now—was concerned that I was in the bail bond business and that that might mean that I was closer to a criminal element. Of course, nothing could have been further from the truth, because basically, in the bail bond business, we're dealing with the relatives: the mothers, the fathers, the sisters, the brothers, the friends, and the employers of people, not directly with the criminal per se. We generally don't even see them until they're out—out of jail. It's the other people, because collateral has to be put up, and the people in the criminal world basically don't have the collateral. But in any event, we walked in. It's a very memorable day for me because Sam had never met my mother. She worked in the campaign. She worked in the campaign every day, but he had never met her, and he got up from behind the desk in there, and he says, "Mrs. King, I have two other meetings that are going. I have laid out for you every commission where there is an opening." And I think there were eighteen, and there was a long table in there. He says, "Take your choice. I'll be back in about a half an hour."
Wow. What year was this? 'Sixty?
King
What the hell was this? 'Sixty-one.
Kelley
'Sixty-one. Okay.
King
So my mother said, "Well, what does he want me to take?" I said, "Well, you heard what Sam said." So she looked at each one. (I went over and sat down and read a book.) She went through every one of them and looked at each one of those commissions. She chose the library commission [Los Angeles City Board of Library Commissioners]. She was the first black in the history of Los Angeles to ever be there. If you can imagine a community at that time where there were virtually no black books in any library, except the library that was over on Naomi [Avenue] and the library where Mrs. [Miriam] Matthews was.
Kelley
On Vernon [Avenue].
King
On Vernon. And when I was a kid I used to study there. So she said, "This is an area where I think I can do something." So as we went on, that came to pass.
Now, the issue of the commission was the last issue that we had gotten advanced commitment from him—that it would take place. By that time, we had blacks on city commissions going and coming—just going and coming. All these people had paid a dear price in the campaign. All had paid good dues in the community. He put three blacks on this staff as deputy mayors. Well, I guess technically
Kelley
Really. I never knew that.
King
[pause] And she was the first person that he hired. He hired her day one. She still lives out in the Pacoima area. He also hired Willard Murray. Willard Murray, today, works as an adviser and aide to Congressman Mervyn [M.] Dymally. And Richard Jones as, you know, a field rep. Richard, who I mentioned to you a little bit ago, is a state commissioner on aging appointed by Governor [George] Deukmejian. And all of a sudden, we had access where we did not have access prior to that. Now, this was a necessary foreground in connection with putting the commission together. That was 1961, and I believe the commission was ultimately put together in about—sometime after the Watts insurrection.
Kelley
So about '66?
King
About '66. Now, what is significant is that we had some input in connection with it, and one of the things that was decided on was the makeup of the commission. The commission had nine members and about, I believe, a twenty-four member advisory committee to the commission. One of the slots that was carved out— There was a general
Kelley
[laughter] Contrary to popular belief. So Reverend E. V. Hill, Norman Houston, and yourself and several other Republicans.
King
Oh, many others. Many others. We were significant.
Anyway, this seat was to be an NAACP seat. Norman was the first out of the NAACP to hold that seat. Norman, without question, was one of the outstanding young black
Kelley
So you were appointed president of the NAACP in '68?
King
No, no. I was elected president of the NAACP in '66.
Kelley
I'm sorry, elected in '66.
King
And in '68, I replaced Norman B. Houston on the Los Angeles City Human Relations Commission. The charter that created the human relations commission was very, very
Kelley
Was it an organization that met specifically to deal with race relations in the L.A. community?
King
Yes.
Kelley
Were Hispanics and Asians also represented on the commission at that time?
King
Yes. There was even Native American Indian. Now, it has lost its makeup now, but it was a very serious situation at that time. Now, when I came in, there were women— In terms of the ethnic breakdown, it was the classic model. So it really represented every facet of the community and in particular with the twenty-four member advisory committee to the commission. So when I went in, of course, I was very well known in city hall and in the general community. You could not be president of NAACP without being on the six o'clock news at least once a week. [laughter] You just could not. All this time— And every issue that came up, you know, your opinion was a valued opinion. If it had racial overtones or if it had a situation of employment where there were problems about employment and other kind of things. So I would not
Tape Number: XVI, Side One
March 27, 1987
Kelley
Now, when the tape turned off, you were talking about the commission and its role—or what you saw as its role—in terms of transforming the life-styles of the community.
King
Right. Now, there were a lot of the traditional black leaders who were taking the position that the [Los Angeles] City Human Relations Commission was going to nullify and was actually heavily supported by the reactionaries who wanted to use it to nullify the county. Now, they did not understand, though, the commitment of the people that were on the L.A. city commission, because we were not running any competition with the county. We were running in tandem with them. At that time, Carter was the executive director. Herb [Herbert] Carter. Herb, by the way, now is vice-chancellor of the California State University system. Very bright guy. Herb and I had related in the past and in the community on many, many issues. Sometimes I was probably a little bit further out than he was, but I didn't have the same constraints. He was a county employee and had to deal with the board of supervisors and other kind of things. In my case, I only had to deal with, well, first of all, my legitimate constituency that had elected me. Second, the general
Kelley
Do you think the agenda of the commission, when it was first established, was realistic or was it too broad or too narrow?
King
Well, I think that you have to put something in writing that you're willing to support with bucks, and I don't think that there was a commitment for the money at an early point in this situation. Obviously, today there is no commitment for money either, but I don't think that money alone can be thrown at a problem and the problem's going to evaporate. I think it is the quality of the people and their commitment to do something, and simply doing the best with what you have. I've always felt that the solution to problems can be assisted by money, but when you get to the point where money is supposed to be the criteria—how many dollars did you spend—I don't know that that is a good measuring tool in terms of what you've
Kelley
Okay. [tape recorder off]
King
One of the problems that we had with the commission was that all of the turf was coveted by the various city council people, and anytime you went into a person's turf—a city councilman's turf—you virtually had to stop on the freeway and call and say, hey, look, there's a problem on your turf and we're coming in. You could not simply go in there and solve the problem. You virtually had to, you know, chat with this person over at their office. So we had some very aggressive people that were on our bureau, and in many instances, they would go in to solve the
Kelley
Which causes a problem because sometimes—
King
And it was only a matter of time before we had done so many good things until we were having some political problems with the people that were elected officials in those areas. We thought we might have a simple way of solving it by assigning one of our persons into the office and use an office desk in their field office of the council people, and it did, to a large extent, help. However, we still had people that went on into one district and to another district, and if there was a confrontation that developed, hey, our folks would just hit the road and head out there. We never were able to completely overcome that because, sometimes, just the vagueness of where the line is. You know, when are you in someone else's district when the council districts are cut up in such unusual ways. Unless you're dead center in the district, you're never really completely certain, you know, on whose turf you
Kelley
Exactly.
King
So we had a number of things that we were able to do a good job in, but basically, we got credit for defusing things. What I had always really wanted was to prevent things from occurring by getting in early, and I was able to kind of sell the commission on that idea that if we were able to get in early before the problems had exploded, that we may be able to perform more of a valuable service. We would not get as much publicity, but we would reduce tensions.
Kelley
I see. What were some of the very specific, prominent incidents that the commission stepped in under your tenure and were involved in in the community?
King
Well, okay, one of the situations involved the schools, and we didn't have direct jurisdiction over the schools, but the problem was getting ethnics in as administrators into various areas so that in some of the schools that the vice-principals for both the girls and boys would be able to more effectively relate to them. There were very, very few blacks or Hispanics or women, for that matter, that were at any significant level in the school system. So we took on a part of that. Now, that was also a follow-up from a project that I had been involved in when I was with the NAACP [National Association
Kelley
This is throughout the Los Angeles Unified School District?
King
Well, basically in the northeast and in the south sections of Los Angeles.
The situation in connection with the police problems that were occurring. We worked to some extent with the police department in trying to get their community relations more involved with the minority communities, rather than less involved, so that they would be making affirmative moves. We did a lot of counseling in connection with the personnel department where people were coming down and being turned off for jobs for simply, basically, that they were minorities. So we worked quite a bit with internal— In the gubernatorial level, too, because we also related with the governor's office in terms of attempting to get them to do some other kind of things.
The first effort was made to get the L.A. Brotherhood
Now, the Watts fiasco that took place that different people have described in different ways, but it did represent a lot of frustrations coming out that a community had endured for many, many years. We held meetings out in the community. We appeared on forums out in the various communities, and we reduced tensions to a large extent. So our role was not that of going out and having confrontations at the street level, but it was basically sort of inside-the-auditorium approach.
Kelley
I see. Now, your tenure from '68 to '73 was such a significant time. Probably the most significant period for mass black political activity. Did this affect your work at all? Was there extra strain? Especially considering you have the Black Power movement emerging, and you have sort of a militant grass-roots movement confronting a lot of issues of the city and stuff. Did this make your job difficult? [knocking on the door]
King
Well, I guess we'll have to let somebody through
Kelley
Okay. Well, I was basically asking about—
King
Oh, yeah. The militancy and other kind of things.
Kelley
And how that affected your work.
King
That really wasn't a problem for me personally because I had related at all levels. I was one of the confounders of the Black Congress, and since you're going to be a history buff around here, you will undoubtedly cover the Black Congress, because it was a very significant situation. There again, there were five or six of us who put it together. We were exposed to some unjust ridicule at one time, but I think that in the end most people understood that we were trying to do someting to improve the community. But it was viewed quite differently when we initially put it together. [Ronald] Reagan, at that particular point, was governor, so— And he was really not that bad of a guy as governor. He had a very short fuse, and we used to meet with him on frequent occasions. That was when the old state building was downtown at First [Street] and Broadway. Well, there is a state building at First and Broadway now, but catty-cornered across the street was where the governor's office—the L.A. governor's office—used to be. It's now in the CNA [Insurance] building, and ultimately, when they build a new twenty-story building, it will probably go back downtown again.
Kelley
Who were some of the people that were involved in the commission during your tenure?
King
One of those slots that was blocked out at that time was for the local director, the executive director, of the [National] Urban League. And that was Wesley [R.] Brazier, known quite well to his friends as "Rock." He didn't exactly pick up that nickname without some just cause. [laughter] He was undoubtedly a good influence on us because he was always involved in process, and it took him generally a long time to come to a conclusion because he went into every facet of a matter before he made a decision. But once that decision was made, it was useless to try to change it. [laughter] He was the director— He was on the initial city human relations commission, and he remained there for quite some time. He was there when I came on and just did a tremendous job. Of course, the Urban League, too, was a nationally based organization.
Now, the Indian group has always had difficulty in acknowledging leadership in a generic way. Meaning that one person would be over a number of different— They had the tribal approach and certainly, I think, blacks would
Kelley
Do you recall any of their names? [sirens]
King
Pardon me?
Kelley
Do you recall any of their names?
King
I'll have to look them up. It's been a long time. Darn, I almost live with these people, too.
We had a Jewish woman who was on, and she was out of the [San Fernando] Valley. She certainly was not what you would call a wild-eyed liberal, but she certainly had her feet on the ground in terms of dealing with things that were fair and unfair. She understood when changes needed
Kelley
They just let them burn because they're not tall enough, right? [laughter]
King
And obviously, there were shorter people that were doing a good job at putting out fires. We ultimately won that. It was the first time that we were able to breach the height requirement in the city of Los Angeles. If ever a thing was artificial, that was it. I mean, if you were five feet eight and one-tenth of an inch, you were eligible to go on and get a job. If you were five feet eight minus one-tenth of an inch, you were ineligible. So it was the kind of thing that we were able to introduce that change.
Kelley
So the commission was really an all-purpose organization which just touched all aspects of the community.
King
Inside and out. We had seminars at hotels. In fact, I remember on one occasion where we had a two-day seminar, and we had Herb Carter, who was the executive director of the county, come in, and he spent over a day with us, because we were unwilling to allow any type of lack of communication between the two organizations. We worked together. We also, on a ceremonial approach, put together the human relations awards, and we had nice activities. They were always sellouts. They have continued it on today, and it's still a sellout every year. It is now a luncheon but same purpose as our original dinners were.
Kelley
I see.
King
And that was to reward people who made the extra step in terms of making the total community more livable.
Kelley
Well, I guess I should stop here because I know you have a lot of work to do, and we can cover the other issues on another date.
Tape Number: XVII, Side One
April 3, 1987
Kelley
What I would like to concentrate on is your activities in the civil rights movement. And one organization which stands out is the Congress of Racial Equality. When did you first become involved with CORE?
King
I guess I sort of became involved with CORE in the early sixties. CORE was one of the movements that had picked up a lot of spirit and had picked up an interracial quality that was very important, and I got to know the key players. I was also, at the same time, involved with NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] and found that there was a good deal of compatibleness between the two organizations at a local level. I participated with them in almost every activity that CORE was involved in, which also included money raising. Fund-raising was absolutely critical because there was no basic funding source other than the events that we put on. The founder of CORE, Jim [James] Farmer, and I were friends. I was glad to relate with him. He seemed to be a very erudite person who was able to articulate very, very effectively the problems and potential solutions within the framework of an active program.
Kelley
When did you meet Farmer?
You know, it's kind of hard to pinpoint the year, but we're back in the early sixties. I think that I probably met him a couple of times before we had any real sort of interaction, but I do recall that I took Jim as my guest to what we call the lifetime NAACP meeting. It was a dinner meeting, and it was out at a place that used to be called the Earl Carroll's Theatre [-Restaurant] on Sunset [Boulevard], just a little east of Vine [Street]. It was a— You know, I may have met Jim in the fifties, now that I'm really thinking about it. It's kind of hard to really put my finger on, but we were all just kind of interacting. All with kind of a common goal and that was to improve that plight of black people, thereby improving the plight of all people. As I say, Farmer did attend with me this particular meeting that we had, and at that time, he articulated out some of the programs and plans that he had in mind that were viewed by the white community as being inflammatory, provoking, and with a possible fuse that would create backlash and other kind of problems. The fact of the matter is that there were many people that were further out than Jim Farmer that were even in his organization. He was a sort of a moderate within the sort of more affirmative approach. He did subscribe to the idea of finding the places to make the big moves. Here, in the Los Angeles area, one of the key situations was a matter in
Kelley
What were the major grievances in the Torrance housing project?
King
Pardon?
Kelley
What were the central grievances?
King
Simply that it was a new housing project. It was being partially financed by government funds, and they were not selling to blacks. We were able to finally cause them
Kelley
Do you recall what year this took place approximately?
King
[pause] You know, I would just have to guess off the top of my head and say about 1962 or '63. Probably '63 is when that occurred. They burdened down the courts so much with the great number of arrests until the courts ultimately had to simply dismiss the charges on substantially all of the people. There were a couple of people, I think, that were charged with assault, and they may have pursued that situation.
Now, one of the things that I had always wanted to do was to be able to figure out some way to use my business to help the movement. I was never concerned about those people skipping out. They would not leave, because they were really fighting for a cause and, had they gone to court and been sentenced to jail, it would have been a badge of merit to them to have done time. My only concern was how to collect enough money, understanding that there would probably be a balance that may never be paid, so that
Kelley
So your business played an essential role in releasing many of those arrested at the Torrance housing project demonstration?
King
All of them.
Kelley
All of them. Okay.
King
All of them. We bailed out every person that was arrested. Every one of them.
Kelley
I'm also very interested— You started to mention
King
The San Pedro situation was basically an employment kind of situation down there where they would not employ blacks at a place.
The other most significant thing that really impacted here in L.A. was the real estate group called the Realtors. The Realtors had refused to handle listings for blacks outside of the black community. Now, in 1948, Loren Miller [Sr.], who was a civil rights attorney, was affiliated with the L.A. Sentinel and then later was the owner of the [California] Eagle newspaper, actually carried a case to court that involved the Sugar Hill area and was able to get a racial covenant preventing blacks from ownership nullified. Now, I think that went to the appellate court but did not go to the state supreme court. But long ago, the cracking of the ice had taken place, and we felt that in spite of the racial covenants that were listed on these properties, we were going to insist that they make them available to the total community, meaning blacks in the white areas. So one of the things that really drew a lot of attention was going to the meeting on one occasion of the Realtors in this area, which by the way were all white. They accepted no black members. Members of CORE blocked the exit so that the cars could not come out. They put a human line in front of it. Got a lot of television
Kelley
Do you recall what year this demonstration took place?
King
Early sixties. Also there was the— I cannot remember the circumstance that were totally involved, but CORE put a ring of people around the entire federal building in downtown Los Angeles several persons deep and didn't let anyone in or out. Manuel Cruz Reyes, who is now justice [of the California Supreme Court], at that time was the U.S. prosecutor, and Manuel, at that time, was a guy who knew a lot of us on a one-to-one basis. We'd been to dinner on occasion. He used to come out in the community and those kind of things. I haven't seen him in the community in well over a decade now and maybe only once then, and in the prior five years prior to that maybe once. But at that time, he knew the players, and he came outside and he says, "Look. I'm going to arrest everybody out here if they don't stop this." No one stopped. It went on. Ultimately, nightfall came and they just stayed there, and the people who were employees had difficulty getting out to go home and that kind of situation, but again, it dramatically drew attention to the plight of black folks. These were integrated groups. In an effort to have a fund-raiser here, this one was held over at the
Kelley
This one right here? [points to award]
King
Yeah.
Kelley
It says, "Presented by the Congress of Racial Equality to Celestus King III for his significant contribution to the cause of freedom and human dignity."
King
Yes.
Kelley
That's beautiful.
King
And I was just absolutely overwhelmed. I was really so immersed into what I was doing in terms of trying to improve our plight until it never even occurred to me that I was doing anything of any significance. I just thought I was doing what I should do.
Kelley
When was that presented?
King
Nineteen sixty-four
Kelley
Nineteen sixty-four. Now, given CORE's tactics, in terms of trying to improve the conditions of blacks, how did the NAACP relate to that? For instance, did it take a
King
Well, CORE was having so many internal problems until CORE really didn't have a lot to say about NAACP, and NAACP, if you had to put it on a linear scale of left and right—not in the political left and right sense, but just on a scale—CORE was to the left of where the NAACP would be. Now that does not mean that Red influence and those kind of things but just to the left. CORE had a lot of people, as I mentioned, that were further over than they basically were. There were two main groups in addition to the baseline of CORE people. You had one group that was extremely pro-black, and they did not want white leadership inside of the movement. They strongly felt that it was a black responsibility to restore some justice in the community if there ever had been any to restore. In any event, to recreate this situation, what those folks were saying was they wanted the whites out of CORE. Many of the whites had been extremely devoted to CORE. Now, there were a few whites who wanted out because they wanted to be more aggressive than CORE was. So what happened was you had the internal strife in CORE. Everybody going the same direction, but some people wanting to run faster than others.
Kelley
Who were some of the local leaders and what
King
Well, we had a guy by the name of Smith. What was his first name? He was a cofounder of— Lou Smith. He was a regional director for CORE, and he was a cofounder of [Operation] Bootstrap, which was a black training organization. You had a Jewish woman by the name of Marie. I believe Weiner was her last name. I'll get back with you on her last name. Anyway, she ultimately started working for Merv [Mervyn M.] Dymally after things cooled off. Then she moved to Sacramento, and she went to night law school. She's now a lawyer in Sacramento working for the state. [pause] I'll call you and give you her last name. There were a lot of young, Westside white youngsters that were involved in it, and there were a significantly high number of students on an integrated basis that were involved. [pause] Also, one of the key persons was the former department head, the chairman of the department, at Cal State [California State University] Northridge, of the black studies program out there. I guess they call it Pan-African Studies. Let me get his name. Just a second.
Kelley
Okay. We'll get that off tape.
King
Okay, one of the other key persons was James Dennis, who's now a professor at Cal State Northridge, who, at one time, was chairman of the Pan-African Studies section. He was a major factor in the CORE operation.
Later on, as CORE began to move, there was a change at the top. First there was some breakup, then there was a change. CORE began to move more in a direction of dealing with some economic problems and focusing attention on the rights to survive, to be able to make a living. McKissick was the next director.
Kelley
Floyd [B.] McKissick?
King
Yeah, the next national director of CORE. He was the lawyer. Came off the East Coast. He did a pretty good job of holding together an organization, but he wasn't able to collect sufficient money in order to put together the great number of chapters. As it continued on, then Roy Innis came into play with CORE, and Roy came almost strictly from a standpoint of a black economic base—black economic power. By this time, Jim [James] Farmer had accepted a post with HEW [Department of Health, Education and Welfare]. He is one of the directors of that program in Washington [D.C.], on the basis that he thought he might be able to do something for people working from the inside. He was appointed by the then Republican president. He was a [Richard M.] Nixon appointee, and Mixon had subscribed very much to the idea of a black economic approach. Nixon actually carried out probably more economic moves for the black community than any other president had done. He opened up a lot of doors by putting together programs that
Kelley
How did the changes in CORE affect—the national changes in CORE—affect the organization locally in the L.A. area?
King
The L.A. area and the California area were directly affected because for a while there, there was a groping for a program to sink their teeth into. No organization can be successful without a broad, political, and significant kind of a program. You've got to have a program that impacts, that speaks a little bit to the present and a little bit to the future. Such a program was not available, and the cost on the organization to operate was somewhat high. The organization tried a number of things, one of which was to raise money by putting out publications. Those publications were really based upon people making contributions to CORE. Well, there was also a marketplace out here that could be satisified for that particular type of situation through the local newspapers and other kind of things. So it was financially successful, but it did not do anything as far as the organization was concerned because there was not much of a program that was involved. Innis came to the coast a number of times and made efforts to sort of
So there was an effort being made by some of the people who had been in CORE in the past who felt that they wanted to take it back over. I have to say this for Innis, and I guess I'm kind of an Innis loyalist, I have found the guy to be of high character, greatly a good commitment for keeping CORE together, and the fact of the matter is he has kept it together. Now, I was not involved at that point. When Innis was in for a number of years, I was not involved at all. I think it was about in the mid-seventies some place, Innis called me on the phone, and he indicated that they had lawsuits in New York and some that were out here and in other places. He asked me— He said, "You are a business-type person, and we have all of these problems. Would you help us at this point and would you take on the responsibility of state chair?" I said, "Well, what I will
Kelley
When were you first appointed?
King
I will say it was probably about 1977 or something like that. It could have been a little earlier. I don't really recall. And I'm still serving in that capacity as state chair. Now, we have from time to time put out some philosophical papers in connection with community issues, but we are not in competition with anyone. We are not organized in a way that we have board meetings and, you know, how many members do you have and all those kind of situations. But there's a wealth of experience in terms of people who have been involved in CORE, and there is not a week that goes by that I'm not in communication with some
Kelley
I see. In your last discussions with Bruce [Tyler], you mention a situation at San Fernando Valley [State] College [now California State University, Northridge].
King
Out at the school?
Kelley
Yes. I was wondering if you could elaborate on what happened, what that involved, and what was CORE's role in it.
King
Well, first of all, the blacks students union was an idea whose time had come. There were black students unions at almost every school, whether they be community colleges, four-year colleges, high schools. They were everywhere, and they basically were espousing the same thing, and that was equality of educational opportunity; they wanted to be able to have those kind of movements for upward mobility. CORE, too, was right involved in that. A number of the people that were involved in CORE were supporters of the black students union, and they, in many cases, went out and actually gave them guidance and direction. Some of those things ultimately turned out to make changes in the educational-structure situation: a more relevant
I had a number of problems with CORE when I started taking them over, because, first of all, CORE had no money at all, and there were a number of lawsuits that were out there on the horizon. I was in no position to handle those situations except to talk with the people and see, you know, what could be done. In some cases—and I can't remember the details—but some of the expenditures were never authorized and were committed to the organization. Then you had the problem of people who had been released from their employment in the effort to put out the newspapers or the newsletters from time to time. Also, they gave people a little sort of scroll to go up on the wall and those things acknowledging their participation. There was some question as to whether or not some of the salesmen were going a little bit too far in terms of their
Kelley
So the situation at San Fernando Valley, did that involve the struggle for black—?
King
Well, CORE and NAACP. Now, as an individual businessperson, what I did was I got everyone out. Some were able to pay and some were not. I just got all the students out regardless of whether they could pay or could not. And it really wasn't the students. It was whether or not the parents could pay or would pay.
Kelley
Okay. So at the college they held a demonstration for black studies and then they were arrested?
King
Yes.
Okay. Do you recall what year that took place?
King
No, it's fading into my memory. I guess if I think long enough, I'd be able to kind of definitively touch it, but— And I just took the position that I would hope that I would collect enough money to survive.
Kelley
Okay. Let me stop it.
Tape Number: XVII, Side Two
April 3, 1987
Kelley
Okay. Now I'm going to turn to another aspect of your civil rights involvement. You were involved in SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference] also, I understand. When did you first become involved with the local chapter here, and what extent were you active in SCLC?
King
Basically, the action that I've had with SCLC has been supporter of things that SCLC is doing. I've never held any office with SCLC. I've had an ongoing kind of a membership with them, and I have dealt more individually with ministers who have been engaged with SCLC. So I do not regard myself as having been very much of an impact on the organization per se. There are many, many members who support SCLC, and I think that's because its leadership is basically that of the religious leadership. That, in and of itself, gives it a certain amount of diversity.
Kelley
I see.
King
I worked with the individual ministers who have been a part of that organization. Of course, we were all very supportive of the [Martin Luther] King [Jr.] effort, and anything that King was involved in automatically meant that the rights movement was somewhat involved with.
Kelley
I see.
Now, my most recent involvement with SCLC was on the name change of Santa Barbara from that of Santa Barbara Avenue to Martin Luther King [Jr.] Boulevard, and I must say, at that particular time, I worked hand and glove with SCLC.
Kelley
I see.
King
Or, they worked with me, whichever. [laughter]
Kelley
When were you appointed to the Black Education Commission for the L.A. [Unified School District] Board of Education?
King
I was one of the founding members of that organization. It's difficult to remember exactly when it was created, but probably in the late sixties is probably when it was put together. I was asked if I would serve on the Black Education Commission. It was designed to give input and act as an advisory board to assist the elected school board in coming to a decision path. We did have some impact in connection with the direction that the school board took, but because there was the biggest problem of integration, that made it difficult for the board to make some of those changes. Because you had people on the board who basically were not for, one, either the economics of it, which was buying more buses, spending more money on integration, and second of all, those who did not feel that they were affirmatively preventing integration
Kelley
Did your commission directly impact curriculum, reading materials, or any of those sort of nuts and bolts aspects of education?
King
A lot of recommendations were made, and very few were followed. But there has to be a starting point, and I think that the commission served itself well when they were able to have those things placed in some sort of a perspective so that they could be viewed by the entire Los Angeles Unified School District Board.
Kelley
How long did you serve?
I probably stayed on the board about three years. Again, I did enjoy that particular period of time.
Kelley
Now, I'm also very curious about the California Black Republican Council. Did you help bring that about, or was that already established when you became directly involved in politics?
King
Well, I first got involved in politics on a pretty active role in the early fifties. By nature I was just always a political animal. Always. I had always been interested in what was going on and how the process worked and what we could do to access it. I first was involved with a campaign involving the city attorney of Los Angeles, Roger Arnebergh. He used to go to great extent to indicate that he was not Jewish, although Arnebergh was his name. [laughter] And we used to do radio shows out in the black community from time to time, interview programs, and other kinds of things. I had picked up a bachelor's degree in 1951, and I found that I had a little discretionary time for the first time, and politics seemed to be something that I was interested in.
The second major campaign, which then kind of picked up some structure and sort of was the base for the California Black Republican Council, really started in about 1953. I mean, just the whole concept. It was not in its form the same form that it is today. But at that time,
Kelley
And that was in the fifties, so it's probably about—
King
About 1953.
Kelley
So today that would be about two hundred dollars a plate?
King
Well, given the few people that had fifty dollars at that time, I don't think you can measure it just in money,
Kelley
Who were some of the other black Republicans who organized the dinner and who laid the foundations for the council?
King
Paul R. Williams was sort of the titular leader at that point. Paul was very wealthy, highly respected. He was the first black to graduate from USC [University of Southern California] in the architectural school. Lived in the community, always had. And had done some excellent work that had gotten international attention. You had Norman O. Houston, who was the chairman of the board of Golden State Mutual Life Insurance Company, who was very actively involved. And Jim [James M.] Wood, who is still around at this particular point and presently serves on the Los Angeles County airport commission [Los Angeles County Aviation Commission] and is still involved with CBRC at
Kelley
I see.
King
And the name changed, but the ideas of this floated from the mid-fifties. We showed our positions in clear terms. We really got a lot of things accomplished. I remember in 1963, when the California Republican Assembly met in Northern California someplace near San Francisco—I think it was San Mateo, maybe—and at that time, blacks could not go to Palm Springs and get normal public accommodations. Basically, [we] had to stay with friends that you knew up there and things of that nature. So the following meeting, which was a money meeting as far as Palm Springs was concerned, because if you had the Republican party with a meeting there, that means that the coins were flowing. The airport would be busy. The limos would be on the way. [laughter] A lot of money involved. There was a gentleman by the name of [Frederick L.] Hall, who was a former governor of Kansas, who at that time was the state chair, and he was interested— he was out of Long Beach. He was interested in bringing a world's fair to Long Beach. That was his number. We were interested in being
Well, the issue came up, which was generally just an automatic rubber stamp, the next meeting will be held at Palm Springs on such and such a day. Now, the thing that put the icing on the cake for the Palm Springs people was
Kelley
Okay.
King
Just a second. [tape recorder turned off]
Out of the clear blue sky came the representatives of Disneyland, who stepped to the stage and said, "We'd like to
Kelley
Okay?
King
So when we immediately sensed that this was significant, that all of a sudden Palm Springs could be broken down, we wanted to be sure that it was done right, so we listed a lengthy set of particulars that we wanted done. We wanted the city council to take a position in an open meeting, a letter from the mayor, a letter from the chamber of commerce, a letter from the hotel association, and we wanted them to publicly acknowledge it at the next board meeting of the CRA. [laughter] And in the meantime, they were trying to cut a deal with the Anaheim people, saying, here, you take it the time after. That's the Palm Springs people. But anyway, they didn't have time, because we had a good rapport with the chair, and the chair said let's call for a vote on it. And they called for a vote, and those were the conditions. We were able to turn Palm Springs completely around in one meeting that took place hundreds of miles from there and no one even walked a picket line for five minutes. It was all about green money. When we got to Palm Springs, they met us with open arms because they didn't want to lose the impact of that money [and] because they also felt that if they got turned down at that
Kelley
Wow.
King
And the people just let us alone. They didn't intend to do anything about the plank. They did not intend to actually carry it out, but they did not want to have a fight with the black Republicans, who had been loyal to the party but had insisted on day-to-day basis that there be some changes made.
Kelley
What were some of the specific positions that the plank took?
King
You know, it's kind of hard to remember all of those
Kelley
What's the status of CBRC today? Is it still sort of a caucus within the party?
King
Yes. CBRC is a legitimate part of the organizational structure of the California Republican party. There is a state central committee and this state central committee has outreach programs that are a part of it for various ethnic groups. CBRC is one of the oldest outreach groups of the party itself. We have played some very significant roles. In particular, in 1985, when at that time, there was a very close election in connection with who would be the vice-chair of the party. The vice-chair is pretty well like the chairman-elect, and generally, the big fight is over the vice-chair situation. Well, it just so happened that it was a pretty even contest, so we then became the balance of power, and we made a step in the direction of a guy by the name of [Perry C.] Parks [Jr.] out of Bakersfield, and he
Kelley
I see.
King
The state chairman, who's been chairman now for three years, is C. J. Patterson. C. J. is out of the East Bay section. He's out of Oakland, California.
Kelley
And he's the state chair of CBRC.
King
Yeah. In addition, I might mention that my wife, Anita [Givens] King, is the state vice-chair. The rules that have been laid down is that if the chair is a woman, then the vice-chair must be of opposite sex. So it means— And also, one other is, and that is, that the Northern California/Southern California. That rotates. It doesn't necessarily rotate, but if the chair is from Northern California, the vice-chair would have to be from Southern California, or vice versa. Anita has been the vice-chair for the last three years. We have, through the California Black Republican Council, gotten literally hundreds of
Kelley
I have one last organization, which you were very much involved in. That's the Black Agenda for Economic Survival [Black Agenda, Inc.], which I believe is still in existence now.
King
The Black Agenda is still in existence. I have always been a member of the Black Agenda since it first started.
Kelley
When was that?
King
Oh, let's see. Maybe five years ago. I have served on the board of directors for about two of those five years, and I think that the organization is one that can have a good supportive impact on other things that are involved in the black community. Reverend Kilgore, Tom [Thomas] Kilgore
Kelley
So it basically consists of black leaders who discuss some of the issues of developing an economic base. Is that the right way to put it?
King
That is correct, yes. The Black Agenda was kind enough to give me a community honor two years ago at a sell-out sit-down luncheon at one of the airport hotels, and I was very pleased about the acknowledgment. I did not seek it so I was particularly pleased about that. One of the former executive directors was Norman B. Houston, and he did a good deal in order to increase the public awareness of the organization.
I guess there's one other organization that I'm involved with that probably we should mention, and that is the Southern California National Business League. The National Business League actually is the oldest [black] organization that has institutionalized itself in this country. The Urban League was formed in 1910, 1908, 1909, with the Niagara [Falls] convention and the creation of
Kelley
And it was originally called the National Negro Business League?
King
Right, right.
Kelley
Okay, I'm very familiar with it.
King
I've taken the lead in reinstituting that program in the Los Angeles extended area, and I am chairman of the board of the Business League. We are moving pretty well, and we've picked up a number of memberships, and we have helped in getting a couple of franchised dealers with Ford Motor Company, and we've, in general, been able to give some assistance to black folk.
Kelley
What kinds of programs does it advocate?
King
Self-entrepreneurship. We are saying that basically that, if we as a community are going to solve our problems, then we're going to have to be in business for ourselves and not simply be looking for the good job. We're not opposed to people with good jobs. Don't misunderstand that. But we're saying that if there's going to be a solution, it's going to have to be through self-employment.
Do you have any closing remarks you'd like to leave people who may read this?
King
I guess if I have a closing remark it is that there is a large burden upon those of us who have been involved in community activities for the last several decades for us to find and to identify people to replace us who can carry on this fight, who have the will, the commitment, and the thickness of skin to take criticism from inside the community and outside the community and still stay on a path that will improve the plight of black people and all people.
Index
Courtesy of Dept of Special Collections/UCLA Library, A1713 Charles E. Young Research Library, 405 Hilgard Ave, Box 951575, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1575; http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/special/scweb/
http://content.cdlib.org/view?docId=hb9z09p6tg&brand=oac4
Title: Black leadership in Los Angeles oral history transcript : Celes King III
By: King, Celes, 1923-, Interviewee, Kelley, Robin D. G, Interviewer, Tyler, Bruce Michael, 1948-, Interviewer
Date: 1985 and 1987
Contributing Institution: Dept of Special Collections/UCLA Library, A1713 Charles E. Young Research Library, 405 Hilgard Ave, Box 951575, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1575; http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/special/scweb/
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