The goal of expanding DIA nationally, Judy Heumann's decision to go to California and her role as a leader
Jacobson
I do want to get back to DIA. You said that there was a goal of having DIA spread across the country.
McQuade
There were, and there are other DIAs, yes.
Jacobson
In your mind, was that successful or not?
McQuade
Was it successful? I was going to say "sexist." No, women were leading it. I think DIA itself, they call it the metropolitan
DIA, for like the New York group. I went over to give a talk in Newark to establish a chapter there. I went over to Maryland,
to establish a chapter of DIA. I think the Maryland one exists. Frieda would probably--Frieda Zames--would probably keep track
of that. I know we gave talks in those places. I forget if there was one in Pennsylvania. I think there was, but I don't know
that it's functioning now. So we would try to have--
Jacobson
How about New Jersey?
McQuade
I don't remember. I don't know if DIA still exists in New Jersey. It may have changed into something else. I really do think,
both from the CIL [Center for Independent Living] in Berkeley, from the students who formed the independent living center
in Berkeley, really the independent living center on the campus on the Berkeley campus, and from DIA. The concept starting
getting out. The idea of disabled people--I have to stop and tell you this.
I spent my life correcting people saying "disabled people" in our literature and everything. "People with disabilities," to
emphasize for the nondisabled, the person, not the disability. When I talk with people with disabilities, I won't say "disabled
people." It's funny, it's a thing that I really try to get across, because people who aren't disabled see the disability.
It's obvious, with us you're going to see it first. But disability is the
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prominent thing for them. So when we do this tape, if we could say "people with disabilities" for nondisabled people. [Interviewee
Note: People reading this should realize I mean people with disabilities whenever I say "disabled people."]
At any rate, going back, I think the idea of what DIA was trying to do very much came into vogue. There still are individual
organizations representing specific disability groups, but they come together--not that they didn't come together before if
necessary, but I think this whole idea of all different people with different kinds of disabilities working together, that
idea was adopted. The National Council on Independent Living, the state associations, that there are independent living centers,
I think the idea of that spread. I think the people in Berkeley, and the people--certainly for the idea of a center--but I
think the DIA concept, the concept of people with disabilities uniting together to work for, first there's civil rights, but
then to really change the world that we lived in so that we could be integral parts of that world as much as we want to be.
Jacobson
Do you know anything or have any knowledge about when Judy went out to California? Do you have a sense of why she went there?
McQuade
I think she had heard about it, and she wanted to find out more about it.
Jacobson
Was part of it to promote this idea of Disabled in Action?
McQuade
This is funny. I know we talked about when she was going out. I know she had heard about the center and she wanted to find
out more about it. It might have been to promote the civil rights movement. Because that really--that wasn't a movement per
se beyond Berkeley, that was to really provide, as best as I understand it, the idea was to provide supportive services so
people with severe disabilities could participate in the Berkeley campus. So I think it probably did have to do something
with that. What I was going to say to you, when she went out, I felt a void. Judy was and is a very strong--she has a very
strong persona. You know when Judy's there. [laughter] In the movement, even at that time, people either adored her or were
critical of her.
Jacobson
What were they critical of?
McQuade
I was going to say this happens to divas in other places. Judy is a diva. Some people felt--talked to me, because I was very
close to Judy and I didn't feel the way some of these people felt, because I think you have to have the kind of drive that
she has to take on what she took on. She has immense energy, she has a good memory for people, she remembers people, and she
just did a lot. I think I consider her as the mother of the modern disabilities rights movement. I don't feel any qualms about
saying that.
Judy would go to Australia. Judy would go here. I mean, I think some people felt that she--it was too much. This is going
to sound like, "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia" on the Brady Bunch, too much "Judy, Judy," but people identified DIA with Judy. DIA
in many ways was Judy, at a point in its history. The subsequent leaders in DIA didn't have that kind of baggage with them. I was the president
of DIA. As I said, talk with Pat and Denise, because I can't remember who won the election the first time after Judy left.
But there was a big void for us, because first of all, her job allowed her--because she finished at three o'clock, her job
allowed her to attend loads of meetings that the rest of
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us couldn't. Either we were in school full-time or we were working full-time, and we couldn't do it. It was fortunate, in
a way, that she was a teacher.
Jacobson
What kind of meetings?
McQuade
Oh, God. It's really hard for me to remember. She would go to meetings; it might be with other disability organizations. Say
with the Wolf--with the conference at that school, Judy was involved with the meetings planning for that conference. She attended
planning meetings.
Jacobson
Is that the Policy in Action conference?
McQuade
Is that the policy in--?
Jacobson
Action.
McQuade
I think that might have been that. I think that's what it was. That's really interesting that you remember that. She did that.
She was the spokesperson. She was able to attend the meetings, so Judy was the one that everybody met and knew. The rest of
us, we would be at meetings--as God is my judge, I would never have gone out to speak any place, only when she couldn't make
something. I used to say to her, "How come I get to go to Newark, and you're going to Australia?" as a joke. But it's like
she also, without us thinking about it, she mentored you in way, because I had to go on Malachi McCourt's radio show to promote
the conference. I almost choked to death I was so nervous. [laughter] The first time I spoke to a parent group, I was so nervous
I felt myself choking. I said, "Could somebody get me water?" Parents are running all over. We're at a library. I thought,
"I'm going to just die in front of these people," because my throat started to constrict. I just was like a nervous wreck.
[telephone rings] Sorry.
Jacobson
We just took a break.
McQuade
While we were on break, something came to me about your husband Neil, that I remembered. We went out to Hofstra [University].
I took Judy. Judy was then either able to be lifted or somehow transferred with some help into my little car. We were running
out to Hofstra and we were there for, I think, the day. We must have been talking to disabled students on the campus. I believe
we were talking to them, encouraging them to organize or to get involved with DIA, something like that. I think one of the
things I was saying to you is that what's so frustrating is that you remember doing something, but you don't remember why
you were doing it.[laughter] I remember Neil; that Neil always pushed himself backwards with one foot.
Jacobson
Neil--
McQuade
Jacobson, your husband. I was saying to you as we were talking before. I know I met Neil out there, and I know we were going
out there one Saturday to give a talk. Judy was going to be--I was driving. I was coming with her, but thank God I didn't
have to talk. Judy was giving a talk.
Jacobson
Did you go with an attendant?
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McQuade
This is the funny part. I can't remember who was with us. I can't remember whether Larry came with us--my husband, Larry Weissberger--or
somebody helped her to get in the car, and when we got there somebody was going to help her out. I can't remember that. I
think there was somebody else with us. I don't remember if it was Susan Marcus. I can't remember that part of it. But I know
we were out in Hofstra to organize people and to talk about disability rights. Do you remember Frieda Tankus?
Jacobson
Yes.
McQuade
She was one of the sweetest, just kindest, most loving human being. Do you remember her brother Morty and everything?
Jacobson
Yes.
McQuade
She was a student at NYU. We were at NYU one time; we were doing something. I know that Judy was there and Frieda. But this
is the stuff--we were always going someplace, and whether it was we were talking with students or we were helping meetings.
Somebody could get us a location, and we were meeting at that location because somebody had a connection. I always remember
us running around here and there.
When we turned off the tape, I was talking more about Judy and when she went out to California. She was so, so vital to the
functioning of DIA. It wasn't that Judy did everything alone. That certainly wasn't the case. But when she was going away,
or going to meetings where she was going to be away for a time, there was in some ways a void. Things still went on. We still
held meetings and all, but it was--you felt--I felt--I can't speak for every single person, but I felt kind of a loss, if
not direction, not as much of a--I'm trying to think of the right word--a boat without its rudder I guess is the best way.
She was such a strong leader. We had different roles, and we continued. It wasn't like she was totally gone and therefore
we knew we had to establish a new president. There was a void. That's really the right way to say it. We were still working
on things, but she would come back and we would catch her up, and she would tell us some of the things that were going on.
That's another thing too--DIA, I think it was after Judy;s time in DIA, in terms of being an officer and everything--we worked
on the Flynn, Bloom, Koppell Bill which was New York state's civil rights law for people with disabilities. That was the first
human rights law in the state. I know we worked on the local city human rights law, to have a city human rights law. That's
been amended at different times. But I think the state one came first and then the city one.
Jacobson
What year?
McQuade
State one, I do remember. I think that was 1975. The city code, in terms of that--I may be saying it wrong--I don't remember
exactly when we did it, because we did spend a lot of time working on the state human rights law. We were probably working
on it like--it doesn't always pass in one session. Probably '74, '73, '74, and then '74 or '75, something like that. But I'm
pretty sure it went into effect in '75. But the thing I was saying also about in terms of Judy's presence, no one since that
time--Frieda Zames was president for quite a while in DIA; a lot of times, the person who was the president of
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the organization, that's who people identify the organization with--but no one has ever surpassed the kind of persona that
she represented in terms of DIA. Judy really is a very unique person.
What I was saying to you about some people, I think for some individuals they felt bulldozed by her. I didn't feel that. People
knew we were close, and people would talk to me. I didn't feel like there wasn't a free exchange of ideas. There were disagreements
at times on different things. I don't remember what people would--
Judy and I, our disagreement was when we were first working together. Judy felt disabled people always got form letters, and
she didn't want anybody to get a form letter. I was the secretary. I had to do all the letters, and I knew we had sacks of
mail! I remember, this was one thing, it's kind of an amusing anecdote. I said, "Judy, when I come and work, either I come
at night or I come on the weekends." She would dictate, and I would take the dictation, type the letters. "Maybe we're getting
ten letters done." I said, "We can't respond to all these people doing it this way. There's just too much mail." She said,
"I don't want to do that to them." So we would continue on. I guarantee you there is mail--I don't know where it is--that
has never been answered back from like 1970 and '71, because just hundreds and hundreds of people wrote letters to her.
Jacobson
To where?
McQuade
To 175 Willoughby Street.
Jacobson
From where?
McQuade
Some letters were from official people and we were responding. It could be on legislation. It could be about a meeting. Some
were just individuals telling her about a problem or a concern. But that was one of the things where we--and I still believe
she was wrong on this one--I said, "Better to get some kind of a response and acknowledge that there's so many letters that
we just can't answer each one individually, than none."
Jacobson
Were they local or state?
McQuade
Some were local. Some of them I don't think we ever even got through all to look at where they came from. As I said, some
would be from officials, some would be from people from other organizations, some were individuals writing about a concern
or whatever. But that was one thing I remember. She wanted so much to respond personally to everyone.
The thing I was going to say is that no group of people can work together where they agree on every strategy, where they agree
on every emphasis that eventually is worked out. But I also think for some individuals--I think sometimes some of it might
be a little bit of jealousy. I mean, you know Judy. She is a force, sort of like that movie, "A Force of Nature." [laughter]
She has such capacity for--some of it is ridiculous. I got stuck staying over with her once. She told me--this is another
funny story--she says, "Come over after work. We'll eat, and we'll do some more letters." So I come over and I said, "Judy--"
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― [Tape 4, Side B] ―
McQuade
I started to tell one of my Judy Heumann stories. This is probably either late '70 or early '71. I was working as a legal
secretary. I come home from work in Manhattan, come to Willoughby Street. I said, "Judy, I can't always find parking and curb
cuts are not that plentiful and I need to be on your block." She says, "Don't worry about it. Just pull into an empty space
in the parking lot." This is designated parking for the residents of the building. I said, "Judy, are you sure somebody's
not going to be upset?" She said, "Don't worry about it. They'll ring the bell, and you'll just come down and move the car."
So we're working. It's like ten thirty, eleven o'clock at night. I said, "Judy, I have to go home. I'm exhausted," so I go
downstairs, somebody's blocked the car. An irate person whose space I have taken.
So now I come back up, and I say, "Judy," I said, "I can't leave. I have to go to work in the morning. I don't even have clothing."
I think she lent me a nightgown or something. Judy's smaller than I am, so she says, "I'll lend you a dress." I said, "Judy,
I don't know that I'm going to fit into your dresses." So here we are. I take a shower. I borrow a nightgown. She's getting
calls at two o'clock in the morning, and she's talking to people. I said, "Judy, I'm telling you, I would hate to be your
roommate. Who called?" When somebody calls me at two o'clock in the morning, I think somebody's died. I don't view this as
this is a time to chat with your friends. [laughter] At any rate, there are constantly these calls. I get up in the morning.
I have to borrow her dress. Thank God she had one dress that fit me, and I have to go to work. I'm just praying to God that
my car is not going to have like window broken because I've taken this person's space. That was Judy, "Don't worry." Another
Judy story--
Jacobson
Let me add a little bit about that. Willoughby Street is right across from LIU.
McQuade
Right, right.
Jacobson
--and it's a rough neighborhood.
McQuade
Right, I can't speak for today, but it was--
Jacobson
It was not like an upper middle-class neighborhood.
McQuade
No, no. The building I think probably had some people from the University in it. But yes. When I think of Judy, I always think,
her poor parents. Judy met everyone in the world, and coming over, Mr and Mrs Heumann's house was like the waystation: "Oh,
you could stay with my parents." One time, this is post-DIA, I was working at our center. We changed our name. We were Brooklyn
Center for Independence of the Disabled.
Judy says, "Listen, we have these German visitors coming over." They were Green Party people and they were involved in disability
rights in Germany. "Could you take them around?" I said, "I guess. I don't know exactly what they would want to do."
There was one person who used a wheelchair and other people who are ambulatory. Where did they want to go? They want to see
the Indian Museum. The Indian Museum now is down where I work. It's in the Smithsonian. It used to be the Customs House. It's
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at Bowling Green. Then, it was in Harlem. Europeans are very interested in Native Americans. I have never been in Harlem.
I had no real need to go to Harlem. Many of the neighborhoods in the city I have not been into. I have to figure out how to
get there. They're like sitting on each other's laps. We've got my wheelchair, this wheelchair. I'm thinking, I don't even
know if we can get two wheelchairs in the car. We go to Harlem. We get out.
There's a person that--do you know the expression, "the person had a face that would stop an eight day clock?" This is an
angry looking person coming along, and I'm thinking--because we had to ask a question where's the entrance or find it exactly.
Who do these Germans go up to but the last person in the world any native New Yorker would go to ask for anything. And the
person was very nice. I'm thinking, oh my God, this is probably some kind of a drug addict or a person who's going to see
all these white people and just be furious that what are we doing up here. We go to the museum; that all works out fine.
Then they want to go and eat, so I take them to a Cuban restaurant, Victor's on 52nd Street, because I figure I know it's
got a flat entrance. I told them the bathrooms are not accessible, but it's a flat entrance, and I figure Germans don't want
to eat German food if they come to the United States, so let's give them something different. We had a nice meal and everything
and now we're going home, two wheelchairs in the car. We're driving back to Mr. and Mrs. Heumann's. When we get home, I forget
where the hell we put my wheelchair. Maybe my wheelchair was in the backseat, and they sort of sat around it. I think that's
how they did it. And the other wheelchair was in the trunk. We get to Judy's parents' block, all the houses look very similar,
and I couldn't quite remember which is Mrs Heumann's. [laughter]
This is like ten o'clock at night. We rang one bell. They said, "No, the Heumanns are over there." So we find Mrs Heumann.
The way they closed the trunk, it broke the lock, so now we're there, this German person's wheelchair is locked in my trunk.
Luckily mine wasn't, because this really would have been terrible. So here I am. I'm living by myself. I said, "Look, I'll
go home, I'll call a locksmith tomorrow." Eighty-nine dollars later--this is a Sunday trying to get a locksmith--eighty-nine
dollars later, I've got the wheelchair out of the trunk. He had to break the lock, put a new lock on it. Whatever. It was
just so expensive. I called the guy and said, "Look, the person who this chair belongs to has to fly out early tomorrow morning,
can you please come today?" So he came, but it was expensive. So then I drive over to Mrs. Heumann's, drop off the wheelchair.
The next time I spoke to Judy I said, "Judy, you owe me big-time. This was eighty-nine dollars to get this damn wheelchair
out of the trunk."
Jacobson
Where was Judy?
McQuade
I believe in Washington or California. She just called me up. I mean, it's a typical Judy story. I said, "If I were your parents
I would kill you." "All these Latvians are coming in from the weekend, Ma. Could you put them up?" I said to Judy, "How do
your parents stand this? You're not even there. They don't know these people. You have all these people traipsing through
your home. They're doing research or visiting." I said, "Listen, the next time you have a group of people, Estonians coming
in, don't call me. I don't want to go through this again." They were very nice, but it was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe
it, that the trunk is jammed." Unbelievable [laughter].
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At any rate, going back to the days with DIA, we had subcommittees that would meet, and more than anything else, I think we
were supporting pieces of legislation in our state or attending meetings to deal with specific issues, or make sure other
people in the community were aware of the issues, and we agreed to function on them. Ronni Stier was doing some kind of research
on transportation, and we used to go to her house.
Jacobson
She was on the board.
McQuade
Yes, she was. We used to meet at her house a lot, because she couldn't get around that easily, and so we met at her house.
I met Larry, my husband, at her house. It was really funny. Of course, he was married to somebody else then.
Jacobson
What year?
McQuade
That was probably '97--it was before we incorporated. We may have had two vice presidents. You'll have to ask Bobbi Linn.
I kind of remember Bobbi Linn being a vice president also. I think Larry was vice president of communications or something.
Jacobson
I do remember that, but I remember you and Angela as vice presidents.
McQuade
See, Angela might have been--as I said, I think I was president once, but it may have been that she was a vice president.
I have this recollection sort of of Pat [Figueroa] being vice president and me being president once. Then maybe he became
president, or else he was president and I was vice president. I don't remember. I just know that both of us said whoever was
elected we would support. In other words, if he was elected I would support him, and if I was elected he would me. He came
up with that plan of borough DIAs, to deal with the fact that there were transportation problems.