American Bar Association
Hicke
You were in ABA I think. I don't know what you did.
Poole
The first thing I did for the ABA was to turn them down steadfastly when they wanted me join them. I said, I wouldn't be seen
in the dead of night with you people. The reason was this. When I got out of law school, I took the Pennsylvania Bar, and
it was supposed to be one of the tough bars in the country. It was kind of screwy. I took some instructions from an old fellow
who had been doing this for years and years and years. He didn't have a cane, but you would think that maybe he should have
had a cane. He was just strange, but he taught me all of these phrases, and they were in Latin. Now I knew Latin. I had taken
three years of Latin—one year in high school and two years in mid-school when I was in college at Michigan, and then one year
in Roman lyric poetry, which I loved.
I was a great lover of all kinds of lyrics—Browning, I took a course in Browning, I took a course in the Bible as literature.
When I was notified that I had passed the Pennsylvania Bar, I also received an invitation to join the Pennsylvania Bar Association,
but that was not a bar association like California's is. It is
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now, but it wasn't in those days. It was an association of lawyers.
Hicke
Informal?
Poole
Yes. They really had no actual responsibility to the state. They were just lawyers with their ethics and whatever it was.
I was invited to join the Pennsylvania Bar Association and I did. I think that was the first and last time I ever saw it,
but I got an invitation to join the American Bar Association.
Hicke
And pay your dues.
Poole
They sent me the invitation, yes. They were recruiting the young—
##
They were recruiting. They had these recurrent recruiting campaigns. In Pennsylvania in those days, after you graduated from
law school, you had to go through six months of a clerkship, and you would be a clerk for some judge or some lawyer or lawyer's
office. They'd pay you a pittance. I think two months of it had to be after you had passed the bar, maybe it was four months.
Altogether, it was a six-month clerkship. You had someone who was called your preceptor. He was going to teach you the precepts
of the profession and all that. I was with a small firm, and they were good people. They were very good lawyers, and I did
learn a lot from them at the time I was with them.
I was waiting for the day when I would finish that clerkship, because what I really wanted to do was to get into that New
Deal business with Franklin Roosevelt's people. I got an invitation, as did some of my classmates—we exchanged communication
with each other—to join the American Bar Association. I looked at it with some skepticism, because you had to fill out a card.
On the card it listed a number of nationalities and racial groups in a little block on the side, and you had to check which
one you were. One was full-blooded descent and loyal American citizen, one was American Indian, one was Asian Indian, and
one was, I can't remember now whether it said Negro, I think that's what it said, or it could have said African descent, but
there was no doubt what they meant.
I marked the box and sent it back with my $7.00 dues. You had to pay an admission fee. It wasn't a check, because I didn't
have a checking account. It was a postal money order. In about three weeks, I got a letter from the ABA which said, "Dear
Sir: We regret to inform you that the Committee on Admissions has not seen
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fit to accept your application." Heck, I knew what they said about the ABA. So that was that. I then went on about my business.
I went to the National Labor Relations Board. I was there until I got the call to go to the military, and I went through my
military service, and I did my forty-two months in the air force and came to California.
After I was appointed by Pat as an assistant D.A., a lot of the lawyers on Montgomery Street became aware of my existence,
and so when they periodically had drives to get members, they would send a couple of their young lawyers with a spiel they
would give you. They'd come over, and I'd have them sit down and they would tell me all of the advantages of ABA. I said,
"Well, I appreciate that. Now, I'm going to tell you one." I would tell them the story I just told you. I said, "I needed
the ABA in those days. I needed something to make me feel that I was really a lawyer. I had known that I was going to be a
lawyer since I was about seven years old. I got the response all right, and that is enough for me to last all this time. So
you go back to your office and tell your boss there what I told you." Then they would say, "You've got to help us break this."
I said, "I don't have to help you break anything."
When I met my very good friend Jerome Shestach, who was a Philadelphia lawyer, a partner in a large law firm—the Segal firm
they called it. Bernie Segal was active in the ABA, and they tried to get me to join the damn thing, and I told them that
story. Bernie said, "Look, that was wrong, but what you have a chance to do now is to make some of this stuff go right. There's
lots of room for you." There were lots of things in the ABA—it was almost like a feudal system.
One day I got a call from the ABA and they said, "We've been asked by Mr. Shestach to inquire if you would be a speaker at
the ABA forthcoming convention." I said, "I don't know, I hadn't planned on it." They said, "He seemed to feel that you might
do it and he said he would call you, and I'm just calling to ask you if I may send these materials to you." When Jerry called
me, he said, "We want you to come to the meeting and we want you to give a talk on the program. We have this new section.
It's a section of individual rights, and it's going to meet in Honolulu. We have already found out that if we invite you to
do this, the Department of Justice will defray your expenses." [Laughter] He said, "You've got to do it." So, I went.
Hicke
Do you have some idea of about when this was?
Poole
Yes. This would have been 1966, I think it was. I went there, and they were nice people and everything. I was one of four
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speakers. They were all talking about the good things that could be expected from the functioning of this section of individual
rights. It was a new section, and it was not favored by everybody, and there had been some opposition to its formation, but
the Board of Directors had been persuaded, primarily by Bernie Segal and Chesterfield Smith and some of the others on there,
that the ABA would either have to reach out and embrace lawyers or it surely would decline, and you can't live on what you
used to do in the old days, and so forth. That kind of discussion was going on there too.
One of the other speakers—I can't remember his name now—was from Louisiana, and he got up and he wanted to placate things.
He got us there and he was talking about how they treated the "Negras" around his way in Louisiana. It was more like it was
the "Negras" that almost didn't get in there. I followed him [speaking], and I said, "He's going to have a hell of time getting
on in the world the way it really is now if he can't even pronounce simple words like that. If you can't pronounce a word
that is reminiscent of the derogatory terms in which most of your people, particularly when they're absent, speak of or think
of [blacks], want to have anything to do with anything like that. If you're typical of it, I've got another problem with this
thing."
Hicke
You departed from your speech?
Poole
Yes. He apologized. He was one of these good old boys from down South.
Hicke
Obviously oblivious to everything around him.
Poole
Yes. With some misgivings, I joined it.
Hicke
What was the reaction to your speech? What did you say, and what was the reaction?
Poole
In my speech I was talking about the reason why you don't get [black members]. They were telling me that the policy had changed,
but they still couldn't get many black lawyers interested in it, and it took some time to do that. They didn't know why, so
I told them why. I just told them that story of mine. I said, "Even when you want to bring a speaker in to address the assembly,
it's got to be Ralph Bunch. It's not going to be somebody who has been struggling without your help at all."
Anyhow, I became pretty much known for my forthright—not for that speech particularly—but for my forthright responses to a
whole lot of things. Jerry and I talked about it, and I said, "Jerry, I've been in too many trials to believe that you can
get
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up on a policy of constant excoriation and win something. Sometimes, you've got to address the problem that it is, and you've
got to be able to comprehend it in nonperjorative terms, and if you can't do that, eventually people get tired of you. They
may not want to hear you anyhow, but you're taking a risk with me, because I can't tell when I'm going to tell somebody to
go to hell. He can be president of the organization and it wouldn't make any difference to me. If I lose enough of my temper,
I'll tell him that." He said, "Well, just let me know, and I'll join you." We went out and talked to Bernie Segal, and I told
Bernie I would do it, so I did and I got along very well with them.
Hicke
What did you do besides just join? You were active in some of the—
Poole
Oh, yes. I joined the Section of Individual Rights. I also was invited to and joined the Criminal Law Section. I was one of
the founders of the ABA's Section of Litigation, which is probably the biggest single section in the association now. I became
the chairman of the Section of Individual Rights. Then I became a member of the House of Delegates—that's the operating part
of it. Jerry said, "That's where you've got to get." Actually, I was tremendously flattered. When I would get up to speak,
I always had a pretty good audience, and I didn't hold my tongue, but I wasn't there to cuss people out either.
I remember the first time I ever met Judge [Joseph T.] Sneed. Judge Sneed was the deputy attorney general in the Nixon administration—not
during the whole time. He had been the dean of Duke University, I think it was. We were at a mid-winter meeting, I think it
was in—I can't remember now—it was either Cleveland or in Dallas. The big item for discussion at that meeting in the House
of Delegates was a proposal by a then fairly new lawyer, Mr. Bentson, Lloyd Bentson. He was a young Texan lawyer, and he was
proposing a constitutional amendment to change the Fourth Amendment so that it would let police come in your house more freely.
I was one of those they asked to respond to it in opposition. The top staff included the attorney general and the deputy attorney
general of the Department of Justice. They were there. The solicitor general was there, and they were all speaking in pleading
terms—it's time they get to this thing.
I think we had four of us, and when I got my time—[searches for book]. I thought it was in here. I'll tell you what it was.
It was a book that consisted of the speeches of Dean Griswold, and they had been put into a bound book. It was a thing people
read, then it finally came out in a paperback. It's around here someplace. It's just about eighty or ninety pages. I looked
at
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him; he was sitting in the second row, I remember that, and I was in the front.
I said, "I didn't think that I would ever hear this kind of an argument coming from you, sir. I've always had a great deal
of respect for you, and I read your book when it came out—"The Fifth Amendment" is the title, they were speeches by him on
the Fifth Amendment: the part of the Bill of Rights without which the Constitution couldn't have been ratified—I said, "When
they first printed that book, maybe I've forgotten, that book sold for about four dollars and a half. Eventually though, they
put out a little paper book. So a lot of lawyers, in the every day necessity of making a living, didn't really have $4.50
to read your speeches, as much as they honored you. But they could buy it then. I bought it, and I read the whole thing from
cover to cover. What you have said in there about the Fifth Amendment— You realize that you couldn't say that without adverting
also to the Fourth Amendment, and you did, and you've inspired I don't know how many generations of young lawyers to believe
in this Constitution. Not that a Constitution can't be changed, but the concept which is being argued is that we should change
the concept to make it easier for the police to come in.
I said, "Maybe they'll never come into your house, probably not, but I couldn't say if I went home tonight that they wouldn't
be coming into mine, and thousands and millions are in the same position. Lloyd Bentson may be a very bright man and he may
have found the solution to how these people are getting away with something, because the police can't get to the evidence,
but I'd a hell of a lot rather have a sign that said `You will not go past this mark without probable cause' than to have
one say `Go where Mr. Bentson sends you.' Now, if that's the way it's going to be, we're going to be changing this world,
but I don't think this organization, as conscious as it may be about the need—Nixon had been inducted into office—I don't
think that we're going to do this. I don't believe it. I've looked into the faces of many of the delegates of this conference,
and I believe they are every bit as concerned as I am about both the Constitution and this. But I will go down with them and
not with you." I got a hell of an applause. We beat that thing down—we beat it.
I saw the dean, oh, a year later. Mrs. Griswold was not well. She was in a wheelchair, and he was pushing the chair. He stopped
and he said [to Mrs. Griswold], "Last year he spoke against what I had to say in there, and he beat me." And he said to me,
"I want to tell you something. You've made me do a lot of thinking about that. Right now, I'm glad you won. But you know,
eventually, no matter what I think or you, that's what they're going to try to
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do." I said, "As long as they can't enlist you at the forefront of their battle, I'll be happy on that."
Hicke
That's interesting.
Poole
So as I say, I had a good stay in the ABA. But I became a judge. I still belong to the Section of Individual Rights. I still
belong to the Judicial Section, and I still belong to the Litigation Section. I pay dues to them all, but when they were here
a year and a half ago in San Francisco, I went to some of the meetings, and I got mixed up into a whole lot of things. Looking
back on it now, I know that there are a lot of things that I probably still could have said and done in ABA, but as a judge,
you can get yourself into a whole lot of commitments that you don't really want to that way. Although Jerry Shestach has tried
very much to get my interest going again—he's going to run for president this time.
Hicke
You'll have to vote.
Poole
Oh, I'll vote. Oh, yes. I was still in it when I was on the district court, but I began to realize that I should not be looking
forward to being back in the House of Delegates or anything like that again. But I can learn a whole lot from them, and so
I was going to the last meeting. When they were in San Francisco, I went to those meetings. They met in Boston in February
of this year. Then this summer, they met in New York. I didn't go to either of those meetings.
Hicke
Boston in the winter and New York in the summer. I don't know how they worked that out.
Poole
They meet in New York—I think it's every ten years. And when I was there, they used to go from New York to London, and they
would meet with the British Bar there. I did it once with them.
In 1960, I challenged the Board of Realtors. We looked for a house—I think I was starting to tell you this about an hour ago—we
looked for a house and we talked to a salesman on the phone. He was from a Market Street real estate company. We arranged
to meet him, the next day was Saturday, I think it was. Yes, we were going to meet him Saturday morning at this place. We
drove up to it, and he was sitting on the porch. He said, "Are you Mr. Poole?" And I said, "Yes." So he got off the porch,
and he came and he said, "I'm sorry folks, I can't show you this house." I said, "Why not?" He said, "I'm a member of the
San Francisco Real Estate Board, and they are members of the National Board of Realtors, and according to our code of ethics—
You see, there are none of your kind of people living in this immediate area, and
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we're not permitted by our ethics code to introduce somebody in the neighborhood when there are none." I asked, "How does
the first guy ever get there?" He said, "I don't know." But that's the way it was.
We went to another guy who took us to a house—all I remember about it is that it was a house that was in Forest Hills, and
it wasn't too far from where Pat Brown lived. We were inside looking at the house and somebody came, and he opened the back
door and said, "We've got to get out of here." I said, "What the hell do you mean, let's get out of here?" He said, "They're
bringing some people in." I said, "What about it?" He said, "I'm not supposed to do this." So I said, "Do you think I'm going
to run out the back door? You're crazy as hell." I said, "Come on Charlotte, let's go. We're going out the front, the way
we came in." I said, "By the way, goodbye." There were people outside, and they looked.
##
Hicke
Let me just go back and ask you one more question about the ABA, looking back on the time since you joined. Can you tell me,
just in general, about the changes that have taken place since you joined, and the ones especially that you had a major impact
on?
Poole
For one thing, a lot of black lawyers and Japanese lawyers and others have joined and become active members in the association,
and that's all to the good. There still is a tendency for black lawyers to have local associations that are— Did I tell you
about the award I got the other day?
Hicke
No.
Poole
The Charles Houston Club, which is an association, which reminds me, they don't exclude whites. I said, "Well, tell me how
many you've got in there." [Laughter]
Hicke
How many?
Poole
I don't know, I haven't seen them yet. They had this event over in Oakland. It was on Friday, the 20th, and they got it up
without telling me they were doing it. It wasn't that it was a surprise, they just wanted to do it.
Hicke
You didn't have anything to say about it?
Poole
Right. When I heard about it, I said, "You did this for me? You already gave something." They said, "No." This was done about
three years ago, you see. [Shows award certificates]
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Hicke
[Looking at certificates] Three years ago, this one says, "In recognition of your dedicated commitment to the rule of law
and appreciation of the leadership and legal counsel that you have provided for over fifty years. We salute you." That's dated
1990. And then this one says, "The Charles Houston Bar Association commends The Honorable Cecil F. Poole for his judicial
excellence and for his dedication and outstanding service to the community."
Poole
They said, "We're going to have Willie Brown to come and introduce you, and even if you don't come, he's going to do that."
Hicke
And here's one where he introduced a resolution into the [California State] Assembly honoring Cecil F. Poole.
Poole
He's the speaker of the House, so he didn't have a whole lot of trouble.
Hicke
There was no opposition. [Laughter]
Poole
I said, "I'll have to come." I had been to Santa Barbara. They had this on Friday; I came back from Santa Barbara on Thursday
night, and we had the death case of Mason, the fellow who said he didn't want to resist it, so we sat up on Thursday night,
the three of us who were on that panel. I think I left here about eleven o'clock at night. The next day we were going to have
oral argument. On Friday, I told them, "I can't come. We've got this death case that's going to be there." They said, "Let
somebody else speak for you. We can't put it back now."
Anyhow, Debbie [McIntyre, Poole's secretary] persuaded me, actually, that what I should do is go when we got through with
oral argument, and the other two judges on there said, "That's fine. Why don't you do that? Then, when you get through, you
can come back." So we heard the oral argument, and we heard about two hours of it, starting at 9:30. Then I went over to Oakland
to one of the hotels over there, and they had a mob of people there. I was absolutely shocked. They had this great mob of
people there. They knew why I was late coming.
I remember seeing Justice Stanley Mosk; he was there, and a lot of my old friends were there. Stan and I were good friends.
I got to know him when he became the attorney general of California. He had been a superior court judge in Los Angeles. In
the same election where Brown was elected governor, Stan was elected attorney general, and we worked very closely together.
We became very good friends. He was there, and I saw one of my former law clerks was there. I don't know how in the heck she
knew about it. Oh, I know, she's with the Coblentz firm now, and
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they had a table there. I said to Debbie, "I really needed this. I have a space on my wall that I have never covered yet."
Hicke
That's right. You need to put this one up. I think we've covered most of your extra activities then. So maybe we should stop
for today. But let's make sure we cover all of your outside activities today, and then next time we'll start with the judgeship.