More on the Shipboard Murder Case

Stein

I'd like to ask some more questions about the shipboard murder case. Did you know anything about the relationship between Charlie Wehr and Julia Vickerson, one of the jurors?

Jahnsen

I never had an occasion to look into it or investigate it. There was no reason--I wasn't asked to, but when the story was told, I was surprised.

Of course I understood from the story that Charlie Wehr had been an old friend of Mrs. Vickerson, had known her for many years. As I understood, he handled some legal matters for her. This I don't know for sure, other than what I was told. I was also told that, because of this friendship, she had given him several gifts. Among them was a horse and a horse trailer. Whether this was true, I don't know. I've never seen either the horse or the trailer.

The story was that Charlie Wehr, when Mrs. Vickerson was on the jury panel and was about to be selected it was reported that he knew her, and knew that he had done some work for her--had been her attorney or had been friendly--and then the horse story came out, and of course when she was questioned as to her knowledge of anyone in the district attorney's office--she knew anybody there-- Of course, again, all witnesses were excluded from the courtroom, and so this is only hearsay, but when they asked the question Mrs. Vickerson indicated or stated that she didn't know anybody, which, if true, was false. [Laughter]

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Consequently, had Mr. Warren known this, I'm sure--had he been aware of it--he would have informed the court immediately. Oh, he would never have allowed her to sit on the jury; this could never have happened.

Stein

How did this all become known afterwards?

Jahnsen

I really don't know, other than it became a story that there were some questions about people on the jury hadn't been truthful and that Mrs. Vickerson was a friend of Wehr's. Wehr never made any comments to me or anyone else that I know of, and as I say again, it was only hearsay on my part about their relationship or friendship.

King

He didn't know he was ill then, did he?

Jahnsen

No, I'm sure that he didn't know that he was ill, but it was very obvious. It appeared that from long hours and overwork that he was very tired. He gave that impression of being a man that was under great strain and effort. He doesn't have any zip, in other words. He was dragging his body around, so to speak.

It later developed, of course, that he had leukemia, and he died from leukemia. I think this was because of his tired feeling that he decided to go and have a check-up, and then it was found that he was suffering from leukemia. I think possibly, not in defense of Mr. Wehr, but in a way of me looking at it, and the way it appeared to me was that he wasn't as sharp a man as he normally had been in the past. He was tired, and I think he was fearful--if this was true--if anything like that did come out, that it would just take more strength than he was able to muster.

Of course again this is purely a surmise on my part; I can't say that he knew or didn't know, or this had any real effect. I imagine it would, if he knew it--if this was true.

Stein

Is Julia Vickerson still around, do you know?

Jahnsen

I don't know. I've never heard of her since that incident. She lived in Oakland, I understand. She had to live in the county to be on the jury.

Stein

Where was Mr. Vickerson during all this.

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Jahnsen

That I don't know. I don't know anything about the Vickersons at all. [Laughter]

Stein

From what I understood they were a fairly prominent family. I guess they must have had some kind of money if she could be giving gifts like horses and horse trailers.

Jahnsen

Well, I suppose when you say "prominent," you could be prominent in the criminal world, and you could be prominent in the business world, or you could be prominent in many other ways. I don't think she was any prominent person. I think she was an ordinary person that was listed in the jury panel, and I don't think she had any great background. I don't think she was prominent in that way. In fact I think most of the people who ever heard about this would have to think back who she was. She never to my knowledge ever was written up in the papers or anything to give her any notoriety or any publicity.

It wasn't customary to investigate jury panels. The district attorney never went out and investigated a panel of jurors to find out if he wanted this one or that one. I would think it would be a good idea, but Warren wouldn't do this. Maybe if the story was true, maybe had we investigated every member of the jury, the whole panel--remember the venire was, oh, many, many people. It would have taken a terrific force of people to run that background down to find out who they were associated with, and everything.

I think in the federal grand jury system--I don't know this to be a fact--but it seems to me in the federal grand jury system when a person gets on the grand jury or is going to be selected for the grand jury, the Federal Bureau of Investigation normally checks into their background to make a determination of the loyalty and their integrity and their honesty and criminal records if any and so forth.

King

I think that's true. But that's only in the grand jury; I don't think that's in a regular jury.

Jahnsen

I don't think they do it with the ordinary federal jury, no.

King

And this was a regular criminal trial, wasn't it?

Stein

Yes.

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King

I mean it wasn't a grand jury investigation.

Stein

There was a grand jury--there were grand jury indictments shortly after the murder. But Julia Vickerson was on the trial jury.

Jahnsen

Yes. We never-- I would put it this way: we never did any checking on any juries, grand jury or otherwise. To get on the grand jury you have to be recommended, your name has to be submitted to a judge, and then it's put in the box, and then you're selected. This is one thing.

However, I think most district attorneys, and most law enforcement people, try to keep somewhat of a line, you could say, or a record, on how people voted who were on juries. I think when you find that some juror voted against an open and shut case and they voted against it, you wonder why they voted against that. He wouldn't actually make a note that so-and-so was pro or con or whatever they were, you see. But I don't think there was any investigation.

Stein

Did Warren do that? He kept that kind of notation?

Jahnsen

Oh, I think this is customary in most district attorney's offices. I don't think there was a record kept, but I think--well, a jury's on for three months, or whatever the length of time is, and you get pretty familiar with these jurors as to who they are and how they vote. I don't think it was put down in writing--maybe, you know. I don't say that. I don't mean that. But I think that most of the deputies in trying cases would say, "Look out for So-and-So; she'd vote against you," or "She's against the prosecution and she has a sympathetic heart for the defense," or something like that. But I don't think that any definite record was kept, even on grand jurors.

Of course you couldn't do much about removing a grand juror, because he's already been selected, you see. Of course they're only a fact-finding body that goes into various things to make a determination on whether or not an indictment should be returned. One of the reasons for using the grand juries, it always appeared to me, was that if you swear to a complaint against somebody, and charge him with a crime and then the person is not convicted or the case is dismissed, you're civilly liable for the damage you might have done to the individual's reputation. Whereas if the grand jury indicts

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you, this is something entirely different, see? This frees the individual from any civil liability.

King

I didn't know that.

Jahnsen

Of course that testimony is confidential, too. When the person goes and testifies-- I think they're trying awfully hard, some of these defense lawyers, and I would say [of] interest to the civil rights people, as they call themselves, pretty much left-wing--are very anxious to have all of the facts to the grand jury presented. They would like to be able to appear before the grand jury, so they could get the testimony of the prosecution put on before it.

Another thing, too. You normally would limit the scope of the facts before a grand jury, because when the transcript comes out, this is available to the defense. So I think that it's a very slim case. The same way in a preliminary hearing--you don't bring your whole case out.

Stein

That explains it.

Jahnsen

Explains what?

Stein

Well, I've read in a couple of different cases that the grand jury reports-- Well, on the bail bond scandal, the grand jury report is very, very brief, and doesn't go into things very extensively at all.

Jahnsen

Well, you see, the purpose of this is, they just put on enough evidence, or enough facts before--

King

To get an indictment.

Jahnsen

Yes. The same way in the preliminary hearing, so that they would hold the individual to answer, or the indictment would be returned. Well, then you'd be playing your whole case, you see? The defense would know all the witnesses and goodness only knows the pressure that might be put on them. Oh, there'd be a lot of-- It wouldn't be fair.

Stein

Getting back to the shipboard murder case, do you remember a fellow named Frank Corrigan?

Jahnsen

Why, you're thinking--

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Stein

He was one of the ship's crew, and he claimed to have witnessed the murder. He said that he went to the district attorney's office and told his story, and he was put on the stand, but only very briefly.

Jahnsen

You don't mean Frank Conner, do you?

Stein

No. No, this Corrigan wasn't one of the defendants.

Jahnsen

Well, there was a Corrigan in the case, but I don't remember him ever coming to the district attorney's-- Not saying that he didn't. But I don't remember him coming. There was an individual that came and gave some information, saying that--I may be a little far-fetched here and there here--came and said that a fellow by the name of Corrigan was on a ship that was on its way to New York, or to Baltimore, and he knew all about the murder. Maybe I'm in error here, it might have been a fellow named Corrigan that gave the name of a fellow who was on a ship, you see?

It seems to me--of course this is going quite a way back now--this Leonard Meltzer and one of our inspectors--I think it was Lloyd Jester--flew back--maybe it was two inspectors--it might have been George Hard, too-Baltimore. They boarded the ship and interviewed a man there but there was no relation. There was no foundation to what this story was.

Stein

Nothing came of that?

Jahnsen

No. You see, there was a lot of information that came in. You find a lot of people that know a lot of things about nothing. They come in with a lot of information so they can be in on the thing.

Stein

Yes, and have their name in the papers.

Jahnsen

Yes, that too. Then, when a reward is offered, they're very anxious to share in the reward, so if anything should develop they can say, "I had a part in it," you see?

But Frank Corrigan-- Now of course Frank Conner was one of the people that was an engineer on the ship, and he knew about the murder, see? So there would be no question in Frank Conner's case. That the reason I asked you if it was Frank Conner, see? He had a grudge against Alberts and he was the

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one that suggested to King, secretary of the Marine Firemen's Union, and some of those people, that they send Ramsay over, and the others, to get Sakovitz and them to come over and give Alberts a bad time.

Stein

Right. The murder is committed in March, and the trial takes place in November. I was curious as to why there was that time lapse.

Jahnsen

Well, this was a fact. These things drag out. Gee, you're just reading now where fellows are being tried on cases that--Well, look at the [Charles] Manson case down there, and look at a lot of these other cases. The only thing about this here, the wheels of justice move very slowly and they grind very fine, they say, see? This doesn't necessarily mean that there was any purpose in the delay. There were unavoidable delays.

Here was a man that was killed aboard a ship, and all of a sudden this thing blows up, and who killed him? How did they kill him or why did they kill him? Well, you just don't turn on a light and get the light that fast. [Laughter] So it means you have to do a lot of interviewing and a lot of interrogating and a lot of investigating, and you have to run out, as I said a minute ago, a lot of people know a lot about nothing and they're willing to tell you a lot of things that don't mean anything. This means that you've got to run out all those leads.

Now, it was some time before we was able to get some real information. We had run out a lot of leads. We even stopped down at San Pedro, and had people go down there and board a ship down there to interview people, see? I think this was the ship that later went around East. They missed somebody and decided to go East to get it, you see? Well, by the time that ship got around to the East coast through the Panama Canal, this could take two or three weeks, and before you know it, a month goes by or two months.

Then once we did get some information, it was a question of verifying the information. Then it was a question of court, preliminary hearings, grand juries, and so forth. Then it meant handling the evidence, and keeping witness, locating witnesses. People are going to sea on ships and you had to get them off ships and bring them back and hold them. So time does go. In the meantime, there's a lot of other things going on, and I think during this--this was 1935, wasn't it?

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Stein

1936.

Jahnsen

Thirty-six. Well, I think there in that same period of time we had the grand jury going for three months. We were investigating the Alameda County graft scandal, as I remember it, and we were investigating--maybe I'm a little off with this, but in Alameda itself the B. Ray Fitts case over there, where we sent the--

King

That's the city manager--

Jahnsen

--city manager to the penitentiary. Then we had the board of equalization case going on--it was graft. We have eight investigators working night and day, with no sleep.

King

Were you involved with the board of equalization case?

Jahnsen

Yes.

King

Is that the big case in the state of California? I'm confused about the board of equalization. Is that when they have the liquor license--

Jahnsen

Yes, the state board of equalization liquor license.

King

I see. Did it break in Alameda County?

Jahnsen

Well, yes.

King

I didn't know that.

Jahnsen

Yes. That's another story entirely. I'll just have to think on this one first. [Laughter] And then to get over there, because you've got this on the record.

Stein

Well, when did Matthew Guidera pop into the story?

Jahnsen

Matthew Guidera was a steward aboard a ship, and he belonged to the Marine Cooks and Stewards Union, see? The Marine Cooks and Stewards Union and the Sailors Union and the Marine Firemen's Union and Masters, Mates and Pilots, and all these people, they didn't all work so closely together, not in those days. There was feeling between the Marine Cooks and the Firemen, see? And other unions, and particularly in a thing like this.

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We heard about Guidera--information was given to us about him--and he more or less came in because of this reward. I would say because of the reward. I don't think he came in because he wanted to uncover a murder. I don't think he was friendly with the Marine Firemen, although he knew a lot of them in the Marine Firemen. In fact he later became a roommate of a fellow named Albert Murphy, who was King's secretary--assistant, rather, you see? And this was how we worked the deal out on Murphy, you see, was through Guidera. This was a set-up on him to get the facts and that worked out.

Stein

Yes, I heard that story of running the wire under the carpet and out the door.

Jahnsen

Oh, yes. A lot of people never knew this, you see. This was the first time this story's come out. [Laughter] Well this was quite a deal. I never sweat so much in my life. I would have lost twenty pounds, and I guess if I could do it again I wouldn't have to go on a diet.

Stein

That's a wonderful story--you trying to work your way down the hall with the elevator going up and down and running the risk of people seeing you on your hands and knees, crawling down the hall! [Laughter]

Jahnsen

I often wondered if one of those fellows should open the door and say, "What the hell are you doing here," see?

That button hook come in very handy, I'm telling you, after I found out what I was up against. Of course this was green carpet--you get an idea from this carpet--and you see this brown wire strung across, and then having George Henningsen, one of our inspectors, turning around after I had the thing all set and trip over the wire and break the wire and then had to pull the whole thing out and get out of there, because he [Murphy] was going to be home any minute, you see. [Laughter] Coming back to his room. This would have been bad.

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